Motion to recognize "Quebecers" a nation--any thoughts? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-02-2006, 12:10 AM   #46
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Seems to be Harper's attempt to gain some votes in Quebec since the Conservatives surprised everyone during the last election and actually won some ridings over the tired old antics of the PQ.

There is very little threat of Quebec separatism gaining momentum as of today. There is a new, young generation of French Canadians who got the point after the economic nose-dive occurred post-1995 referendum.

Sure this muddies the waters a little, with Quebec always chomping at the bit to send a representative along with the Canadian one to international meetings. But they kept the 'within Canada' part, so I don't see this as a terrible thing, really. I'm not crazy about Harper, but I'm also not crazy about the Liberals right now either.

There is a BIG difference between 'nation' in a sociological sense, and a 'state' - what most people in this discussion are using the word nation as. Ahh, memories of last summer's international law classes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

Well, that's just an outside view. Perhaps our Québécois here can tell me if I'm right or wrong here.
Honestly the relationship between all provinces and the federal government is that of grown children asking mummy and daddy for more money and favours. Everyone jockeys for position and postures to get more funding out of Ottawa. Not really a thing unique to Quebec, besides that in the past the leadership here uses the 'Distinct Society' moniker to wrangle a bit more than some other provinces.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:59 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Canadiens1160

There is a BIG difference between 'nation' in a sociological sense, and a 'state' - what most people in this discussion are using the word nation as. Ahh, memories of last summer's international law classes.
There is a difference. However, I think most people here are using the ambiguous definition that was thrown out by Harper and Ignatieff themselves.

Anyone watching the Liberal leadership race? This is almost as good as playoff hockey.
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Old 12-02-2006, 10:38 PM   #48
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Originally posted by angelordevil


There is a difference. However, I think most people here are using the ambiguous definition that was thrown out by Harper and Ignatieff themselves.

Anyone watching the Liberal leadership race? This is almost as good as playoff hockey.
I was there working and let me tell you I felt like I was at a sporting event! It was a crazy day. Talking to people I felt there was an "everbody but Iggy" movement growing. However, none of us, at least early on were thinking that Dion had a chance.

I saw a lot of dejected Ignatieff and Rae people afterwards. I dunno what was seen on TV but from where I was standing(right in front of the stage) Rae looked like he was still in shock. During Dion's speech he complimented each candidate and they in turn gave a thumbs up, laughed, smile etc. Rae on the otherhand barely broke into a smile and seemed to be staring into space during 99% of Dion's speech.
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Old 12-02-2006, 10:59 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.
First of all, that's not really accurate because if you look at our amendment formula, for example, Quebec has a lot of power (in many instances can veto individually). Secondly, there are no restrictions on Quebec that are not placed on other provinces and you have places like Ontario and Alberta with their own issues and they are just as shit out of luck. Finally, the notwithstanding clause (which has been used by Quebec - repeatedly) really means that they're immune to pretty much anything the constitution may impose on them.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:01 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac


I was there working and let me tell you I felt like I was at a sporting event! It was a crazy day. Talking to people I felt there was an "everbody but Iggy" movement growing. However, none of us, at least early on were thinking that Dion had a chance.

I saw a lot of dejected Ignatieff and Rae people afterwards. I dunno what was seen on TV but from where I was standing(right in front of the stage) Rae looked like he was still in shock. During Dion's speech he complimented each candidate and they in turn gave a thumbs up, laughed, smile etc. Rae on the otherhand barely broke into a smile and seemed to be staring into space during 99% of Dion's speech.
Wow! I'm officially envious...it must have been something to be there. Dion's rise is an amazing story, and I truly feel that the right guy won. I also noticed Rae's disappointment. It was palpable. I think over the last few days, things were ratcheting up in his favour, but then everything fell apart quickly today. It must be such a draining feeling, to have that euphoria of being so close to the prize, only to see it hover away beyond your grasp. I'm sure he'll be rewarded with a great position should the Liberals seize power. The same for Ignatieff.

Great day for Canada.
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:26 PM   #51
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Originally posted by anitram


Finally, the notwithstanding clause (which has been used by Quebec - repeatedly) really means that they're immune to pretty much anything the constitution may impose on them.
Actually, it's been used very rarely by Quebec. I think the last time was with the signage issue. It's also important to note that all provinces have access to this clause, and that it's used rarely by them, as well. While it continually dangles as a potential weapon, nobody's really pulled the trigger completely, I would argue.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:41 AM   #52
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I think it was interesting that it was such a tight race for the Liberal leadership, but frankly, none of them boosted my confidence in the party for the next election. I hope Dion surprises me.
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Old 12-03-2006, 01:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by angelordevil

Wow! I'm officially envious...it must have been something to be there.
It was a rush and very interesting. It was fun speculating about the eventual outcome with people on the floor. This was my first convention and hopefully not my last, although I wish I was working three years ago when Bono was the keynote speaker instead of Howard Dean this year.


Quote:
I'm sure he'll be rewarded with a great position should the Liberals seize power. The same for Ignatieff.
I seriously doubt that either will run in the next election for a variety of reasons, one being their age. The future of the party is Kennedy, Brison and Martha Hall Findlay. I believe for both it was all or nothing and are not interested in simply being an MP. There is already some talk of Ignatieff going back to Harvard.
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Old 12-03-2006, 04:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by angelordevil


Actually, it's been used very rarely by Quebec. I think the last time was with the signage issue. It's also important to note that all provinces have access to this clause, and that it's used rarely by them, as well.
Um, no, it hasn't. They inserted the notwithstanding clause into EVERY piece of Quebec legislation in the 80s! How is that rarely? And it isn't the last time either.

And as for it being used rarely by other provinces - that's not true either. It's NEVER been used by anyone except Alberta (once) and I think SK may have used it once. The s.33 override is used essentially exclusively by Quebec and not in a way that any constitutional scholar would really classify as rare.
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Old 12-03-2006, 05:38 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
They inserted the notwithstanding clause into EVERY piece of Quebec legislation in the 80s!
That was the PQ's way of thumbing their noses at the feds for excluding Rene Levesque from the formation of the constitution. They inserted s.33 into everything because they could, not because they saw a need for it in all new Acts. The childishness stopped when the PQ was voted out.

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
And as for it being used rarely by other provinces - that's not true either. It's NEVER been used by anyone except Alberta (once) and I think SK may have used it once. The s.33 override is used essentially exclusively by Quebec and not in a way that any constitutional scholar would really classify as rare.
Other provincial attempts to use s.33 have either failed (marriage definition in AB) or been unnecessary (labour legislation in SK).

The only time s.33 was actually used and stood for the 5 year limit (in any province) was for Quebec's Bill 178 on exclusive French signage.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy

Other provincial attempts to use s.33 have either failed (marriage definition in AB)
No, Alberta's attempt passed, the issue was that Marriage and Divorce fall under federal jurisdiction. It may sound like semantics but it isn't. A good way of seeing the difference between this and an actual failed attempt is to look at Alberta's 1998 effort to override shield legislation.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:49 PM   #57
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what are people's thoughts on dion becoming the new liberal leader?
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Old 12-04-2006, 12:02 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Zoomerang96
what are people's thoughts on dion becoming the new liberal leader?
The Liberals are obviously going to have some strife trying to get beyond all those years of Chrétien-Martin and their interrelated politics. No matter who they would have elected, the Liberals would still have had the tall order of redefining themselves for a new generation.

As Dion is a relative unknown, he has the benefit of being able to distance himself from all the controversies of the last two Liberal leaders. Michael Ignatieff, while superficially looking good for image purposes, probably would have ended up being too controversial of a figure.

So I guess the challenge now is for Dion to assert his authority and vision for the party, much in the way that Chrétien did back in 1993. Of course, people might be a bit more cynical this time around.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:58 AM   #59
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Originally posted by Ormus
I was thinking about Québec separatism today, and I started wondering how much of it has to do with issues of self-determination.

In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

Well, that's just an outside view. Perhaps our Québécois here can tell me if I'm right or wrong here.

I think you are right. A lot of it is not very rational, in my opinion, it's mostly based on intangible emotions, and that feeling of 'us' being different from 'them' plays a huge part, although many souverainistes won't admit to that...


sulawesigirl4:

Yeah I am still in The Gambia. It's quite a nice place to live I must say, very easy going and I am 10 minutes walk from the beach That being said I prefer Senegal in many ways, more interesting culturally and politically. I am planning to visit Mali in the coming months, I heard great things about it!
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Old 12-04-2006, 01:47 PM   #60
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Originally posted by AliEnvy


Am I not Québécoise?
Actually, I thought of that before asking it but like Harper says "they know who they are" so I don't know if you consider yourself a Quebecoise or not. And besides, you've lived in Ontario for so long that perhaps you consider yourself an Ontarian.

I grew up in Saskatchewan (not easy, being a French-Canadian!) and moved out of there 12 yrs ago as well but no longer consider myself a Saskatchewanarian.

It's not up to me to decide if you're Quebecoise or not - as everyone has said, it hasn't been properly defined. If you consider yourself one, then I would think you are.
Whether Parliament would consider you one is not up to me.
If we are talking here about the strict definition of Quebecoise (the not very inclusive one that I personally don't like, the "pure laine") well I've met you a few times and had no idea you speak French and considered yourself Quebecoise

On a different note, those who held the largest party Saturday night wasn't Dion and his people but the separatists in Quebec...
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