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Old 02-13-2006, 02:22 PM   #16
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I have certain things I consider moral and certain things I consider immoral and would never do. But I don't apply these things to society as a whole. I follow these rules because I'm a Catholic.
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:23 PM   #17
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Originally posted by verte76
I have certain things I consider moral and certain things I consider immoral and would never do. But I don't apply these things to society as a whole. I follow these rules because I'm a Catholic.
I think the question is in reverse. Can society or circumstances change the moral standards you have for yourself?
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:05 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so, ultimately, for many people, there is no higher standard to which we hold ourselves to
Oh we hold ourselves to all kinds of higher standards and aspire to live up to them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511 -- ultimately, it's all there for us to manipulate to our advantage, that all seemingly "objective" standards -- notions of right and wrong -- are never absolute, and further, we take notions of being absolute and use them to justify our actions?
Yes.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:21 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so, ultimately, for many people, there is no higher standard to which we hold ourselves to -- ultimately, it's all there for us to manipulate to our advantage, that all seemingly "objective" standards -- notions of right and wrong -- are never absolute, and further, we take notions of being absolute and use them to justify our actions?
No.

Moral standards are not there for our personal manipulation - unless we want to fool ourselves, God and the world into thinking we are perfect (by always meeting the standard) - and some are willing to do that.

So, we can

Claim there are no moral standards

Claim moral standards, but manipulate them so we appear to meet them.

or

Claim moral standards and admit we are imperfect and will fail.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:34 PM   #20
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I think the question is in reverse. Can society or circumstances change the moral standards you have for yourself?
Society can't change the moral standards I have. I don't think any circumstances could change them, either.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:46 PM   #21
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Originally posted by verte76

Society can't change the moral standards I have. I don't think any circumstances could change them, either.
I think that is generally true. Everyone's notions of right and wrong are developed early in life and tend to stay constant.

However, society and circumstances can certainly influence our behavioural decisions between the two.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:48 PM   #22
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Originally posted by verte76
Society can't change the moral standards I have. I don't think any circumstances could change them, either.
Well, that is the core issue here.

Do we know and live by our moral standards so we can see them as unchanging, or are they defined in ways that do permit flexibility?
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Moral standards are not there for our personal manipulation - unless we want to fool ourselves, God and the world into thinking we are perfect (by always meeting the standard) - and some are willing to do that.

So, we can

Claim there are no moral standards

Claim moral standards, but manipulate them so we appear to meet them.

or

Claim moral standards and admit we are imperfect and will fail.

getting relativistic about this, who created these moral standards? and who gives moral standards any sort of weight and credibility other than he who chooses to follow them? does a moral standard simply exist -- the way an atom exists? the way helium exists? the way water simply exists?

what makes something "moral" and what makes it a "standard"? is it not the person who simply deemed something "moral" and something a "standard"?

and to your last point, what do you say to inviduals who's jobs *require* them to fail their own moral standards?
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


Society can't change the moral standards I have. I don't think any circumstances could change them, either.


or does society create moral standards -- that they are, in essence a red herring, as they are designed to serve society's bottom line, which is the continuation of it's own existence? that all moral standards "valued" by society are simply another piece in the larger system?
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:09 PM   #25
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Well, that is the core issue here.

Do we know and live by our moral standards so we can see them as unchanging, or are they defined in ways that do permit flexibility?
Mine are defined in ways that permit flexibility. What's moral now might not be in five years.
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:18 PM   #26
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Originally posted by verte76

Mine are defined in ways that permit flexibility. What's moral now might not be in five years.
Would you (or anyone) mind giving us an example? What might be the underlying reason for the change?
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:46 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Irvine511
getting relativistic about this, who created these moral standards? and who gives moral standards any sort of weight and credibility other than he who chooses to follow them? does a moral standard simply exist -- the way an atom exists? the way helium exists? the way water simply exists?

what makes something "moral" and what makes it a "standard"? is it not the person who simply deemed something "moral" and something a "standard"?

and to your last point, what do you say to inviduals who's jobs *require* them to fail their own moral standards?
I'm sure the answers to your questions will vary depending on the individual. You are aware that some will point to God and Scripture as a moral standard. I'm sure other will want to develop their own standards, or adopt intentionally flexible standards.

The last question is interesting. If my job required me to lie, steal, etc., I would not do the job. Today, we have laws that require someone not to do their job (or leave their job) if they know it is wrong (especially in the corporate world).

The original story creates somewhat of a false dilema. A person may feel it is wrong to take the life of an innocent person. Is an executioner really facing this situation? Is the executioner taking the life, or was the life taken by the criminal justice system?
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:58 PM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I'm sure the answers to your questions will vary depending on the individual. You are aware that some will point to God and Scripture as a moral standard. I'm sure other will want to develop their own standards, or adopt intentionally flexible standards.

well, Scripture seems as relative as anything else, then. it would also be nice to see if we can't think outside religion, though i do think it's important to note that determining what is and what isn't "moral" generally requries the individual to say that this is what God "wants" -- but, still, we can't get past human interpretation.


[q]The last question is interesting. If my job required me to lie, steal, etc., I would not do the job. Today, we have laws that require someone not to do their job (or leave their job) if they know it is wrong (especially in the corporate world).[/q]


i think this is true to a degree, though i'd point to the fact that some people simply do not have the career fexibility that you or i might have, and also that notions of what is and what isn't lying or cheating or stealing is different -- do you think Bernie Ebbers or Jack Grubman or Sandy Weil or Ken Lay or Jeff Skilling really think that they've lied and cheated and stolen from people? of course, i'd say yes, but i can bet you they can offer up a huge serious of rationlizations that make perfect and coherent sense to themselves.

what about George Bush and Iraq? he's admitted that a good 30,000 Iraqis have died, many of them innocent, yet he sees the Iraq War as moral and just. how does one reconcile being the President of the United States -- where, often, the application of military power is often required in response to world events, something that does make the US rather unique due to it's standing in the world -- with his professed Christianity and notions of "thou shal not kill"?



Quote:
The original story creates somewhat of a false dilema. A person may feel it is wrong to take the life of an innocent person. Is an executioner really facing this situation? Is the executioner taking the life, or was the life taken by the criminal justice system? [/B]

or, does the criminal justice system require individuals to take the life of a convict, innocent or guilty? are you suggesting that there cannot be any sense of personal responsibility by someone performing the job required of them by the system? that they are absolved due to circumstances beyond their control? isn't this the same kind of rationlization that might go through the mind of an Enron executive? i.e., "pressure from Wall Street for our company to hit or exceed our projected quarterly earnings made me look for ways to make our numbers seem good -- this is why we went with Arthur Andersen and their reputation for 'Aggressive Accounting' -- this is how American capitalism works."
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:07 PM   #29
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Would you (or anyone) mind giving us an example? What might be the underlying reason for the change?
I'd quit the Church if I found out my priest was a child molester.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:15 PM   #30
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I'd quit the Church if I found out my priest was a child molester.
In what way would your own personal moral standard be changing in that example though?
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