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Old 07-31-2004, 03:18 PM   #16
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I am so glad someone else brought this up besides me. I have been following the story and the research that has gone into it. The date was changed as well as the headline. I have not read up on it in about a month. Has anyone figured out why he falsified the date? It seems like something he would not do if there was no reason to.
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Old 07-31-2004, 03:18 PM   #17
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Riiiiiight. Moore is doing this all strictly for the money. And the actual truth is that the US military really went in to save the Iraqi people.

A_Wanderer, normally your posts are well thought out, but that one is full of so many loopholes in logic it's astounding.
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Old 07-31-2004, 03:27 PM   #18
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Maybe I should have clarified, because, ultimately, it is a significant topic of discussion that interests me.

Primarily, Moore is not essentially a Documentarian (is that a word?), I think he is more a film-maker, and he did say as much in acceptance speech at Cannes. But to quote his other speech, that notorious boo-inducing one at the Oscars, he did say that he made real films in fictitious times - its reports such as these that stab at his credibility, and that I find disappointing.

No, it doesn't weaken his point, that the Bush administration lied and continues to lie about a number things, and he has time and time again demonstrated how Bush is far from fit for government. Therefore, it is even more disappointing for me to find that he resorted to falsifying so-called evidence (yes, the irony is astonishing), no matter how small, in order to prove his point. I am not a journalist and I am not aware of the difficulties of researching and proving your arguments in the media, but I would have thought that there was plenty of evidence against Bush anyway, without having to resort to false tricks.

It is, ultimately, quite sad. It doesn't take much to show what a complete dullard Bush is, if your forgive my partisan ramblings; Moore should have known better.

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Old 07-31-2004, 03:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
Riiiiiight. Moore is doing this all strictly for the money. And the actual truth is that the US military really went in to save the Iraqi people.

A_Wanderer, normally your posts are well thought out, but that one is full of so many loopholes in logic it's astounding.
The US Military has saved and is saving thousands of Iraqi civilians lives regardless of the original reasons and needs for intervening in the country. For a party that beats its chest about its "humanitarian principles and actions", the incredible humanitarian work being done by the US Military in Iraq goes largely un-noticed, by the democratic party. Its election season, and democrats cannot admit that the Bush administration has done and accomplished great things in Iraq. That would be off message for them, since they want to present a view of the Bush Administration that will be more likely to get people to vote for Kerry. That is why these facts are ignored and not brought up by the Democrats on the campaign trail.
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Old 07-31-2004, 03:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
Maybe I should have clarified, because, ultimately, it is a significant topic of discussion that interests me.

Primarily, Moore is not essentially a Documentarian (is that a word?), I think he is more a film-maker, and he did say as much in acceptance speech at Cannes. But to quote his other speech, that notorious boo-inducing one at the Oscars, he did say that he made real films in fictitious times - its reports such as these that stab at his credibility, and that I find disappointing.

No, it doesn't weaken his point, that the Bush administration lied and continues to lie about a number things, and he has time and time again demonstrated how Bush is far from fit for government. Therefore, it is even more disappointing for me to find that he resorted to falsifying so-called evidence (yes, the irony is astonishing), no matter how small, in order to prove his point. I am not a journalist and I am not aware of the difficulties of researching and proving your arguments in the media, but I would have thought that there was plenty of evidence against Bush anyway, without having to resort to false tricks.

It is, ultimately, quite sad. It doesn't take much to show what a complete dullard Bush is, if your forgive my partisan ramblings; Moore should have known better.

Ant.
A Lie is when some KNOWINGLY says something that is false. To date, the Bush administration has not been caught in a lie about anything!
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


The US Military has saved and is saving thousands of Iraqi civilians lives regardless of the original reasons and needs for intervening in the country. For a party that beats its chest about its "humanitarian principles and actions", the incredible humanitarian work being done by the US Military in Iraq goes largely un-noticed, by the democratic party. Its election season, and democrats cannot admit that the Bush administration has done and accomplished great things in Iraq. That would be off message for them, since they want to present a view of the Bush Administration that will be more likely to get people to vote for Kerry. That is why these facts are ignored and not brought up by the Democrats on the campaign trail.
Nowhere in my post did I say that the US military hasn't saved Iraqi civilians' lives (however, they have also killed Iraqi civilians, as well). But if you think that the main reason we went into Iraq was to save the Iraqi people, then I strongly disagree with you.
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


A Lie is when some KNOWINGLY says something that is false. To date, the Bush administration has not been caught in a lie about anything!
Imminent threat?
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:13 PM   #23
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I am grateful for the brief English lesson, STING2, but I do know the meaning of the word 'lie', having lied more than once, myself.

I also knew the meaning of the word before I made the comment, and thats all I shall say on the matter.

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Old 07-31-2004, 04:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Nowhere in my post did I say that the US military hasn't saved Iraqi civilians' lives (however, they have also killed Iraqi civilians, as well). But if you think that the main reason we went into Iraq was to save the Iraqi people, then I strongly disagree with you.
No where did I say in my post that the main reason the coalition went into Iraq was to save the Iraqi people. In addition, the United States and Coalition Allies DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS! To casually say they have saved Iraqi lives as well as killed Iraqi civilians is an unbalanced and mis-leading statement. The United States military does not go out to kill Iraqi civilians, but accidents do happen. By comparison, over 20,000 French Civilians died in the Normandy invasion that removed Hitler's military from France, but no one seems to ever complain about that fact in the same manner.

"Imminent threat?"

On the Eve of the War Saddam had 387,000 troops, the worlds 13th largest military to be exact. At any time, Saddam could have sent some or all of these troops across the border into neighboring countries potentialy siezing or destroying oil fields while using WMD to support the operation.

To date, Saddam has yet to account for vast stocks of WMD that he had in 1998 according to the United Nations Inspectors. It is factually incorrect to say such stocks do not exist. The stocks do exist, the only question is what condition they are in and where are they located.

Regardless, the administration typcially did not use the words "Imminent Threat" in discussing Iraq policy. The President usually used the words "Grave and Gathering" Threat.

The United Nations determined in 1991, that Saddams possession of WMD was an unavoidable threat to the region and the world, and required that he VERIFIABLY disarm or face renewed military action to insure that he was disarmed. The need to use military force or not regarding Saddam was settled back in 1991. If military action to insure the disarmament of Saddam was not a valid policy, the United Nations would never of approved of the resolution or required that Saddam verifiably disarm or face renewed military action.
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
I am grateful for the brief English lesson, STING2, but I do know the meaning of the word 'lie', having lied more than once, myself.

I also knew the meaning of the word before I made the comment, and thats all I shall say on the matter.

Ant.
So tell me what Bush has KNOWINGLY said that is false?
WMD in Iraq is not one because the President had intelligence information that backed up each of his claims regardless if some of the intelligence later turned out to be inaccurate.
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:53 PM   #26
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Yay!!! another thread derailed.
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Old 07-31-2004, 04:56 PM   #27
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Forgive me for being blunt.

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The United Nations determined in 1991, that Saddams possession of WMD was an unavoidable threat to the region and the world, and required that he VERIFIABLY disarm or face renewed military action to insure that he was disarmed. The need to use military force or not regarding Saddam was settled back in 1991. If military action to insure the disarmament of Saddam was not a valid policy, the United Nations would never of approved of the resolution or required that Saddam verifiably disarm or face renewed military action.
Wow! Sting using the verifiably disarm line again? I am shocked and awed.

You sure know how to go off on any tangent that will enable you to work that argument in.
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Old 07-31-2004, 05:30 PM   #28
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Re: Forgive me for being blunt.

Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Wow! Sting using the verifiably disarm line again? I am shocked and awed.

You sure know how to go off on any tangent that will enable you to work that argument in.
Gee,

You remember this post:

"Imminent threat?"
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Old 07-31-2004, 10:45 PM   #29
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Stop this crazyness! Moore needs money and influence and he gains it by telling people that their government is out to get them (in a real police state Moore would be executed along with his entire family and all of his books and movies burned in a large fire). I plain dont like Moore any more. I enjoyed Roger and Me, TV Nation and The Awful Truth but my doubts started in BFC. The interview with Heston was an example of this as well as the glaring omissions and distortion of facts (The Missile Factory near Columbine actually built Rockets to launch Sattellites, the clips of Heston visiting Columbine and giving a "Cold Dead Hands" speech were actually at a different rally in a different state and he had cut it together, the list goes on).

Since BFC he has made outrageous claims and has made the extreme mainstream and the vigour which people embrace him as a truth teller is quite sickening when you look at his work objectively. I want to see intelligent debate, Moores style of few facts and easy answers does nobody justice - it just perpetuates the ignorance that permates the left. You want to learn then read Gore Vidal or Chomsky but please dont go off and tell me that Mike delivers anything of that callibre.

Im not saying here that Bush is right or anything to that effect, I am saying that I plain dont trust Moore and I think that his "documentaries" should be shown for what they really are, propaganda.

DOCUMENTARY
Quote:
a factual and objective presentation
PROPAGANDA
Quote:
Control of information, ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause
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Old 07-31-2004, 11:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
(in a real police state Moore would be executed along with his entire family and all of his books and movies burned in a large fire).
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