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Old 09-17-2007, 06:36 PM   #1
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Monarchy

Any scholars of European monarchical dynasties here?

It's kind of odd that the British royal family is largely Germanic in roots:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...burg_and_Gotha

Whereas the Stuart Jacobite line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobitism

though originating in the Scottish highlands, now mainly live in Germany, it appears:-

http://jacobite.ca/kings/index.htm


And as for Ireland - neither of the above lines are legitimate (at least from the point of view of Irish nationalists) even though both, for a period, claimed dominion of one sort or another over Ireland, but then there is the O Conor Don:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Conor_Don

"According to the obituary published in the Irish Times on 22 July 2000, "it is generally acknowledged that the holder of the title would be the foremost claimant to the Irish throne, if one were proposed. Over the last few hundred years, members of the O'Conor family have continued to contribute to the social, political, cultural and religious life of Ireland. The fact that they remained staunchly Catholic during the dark days of the Penal Laws in the eighteenth century, is a source of great pride."

What are FYM'rs views on monarchies? I think I'm not necessarily opposed to them provided that they are largely ceremonial.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:05 PM   #2
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I don't think you can speak of a true democracy when you can't elect the head of state, even though it has its benefits. The fact that someone's position in a government is determined by the family he or she's born in, is not something to be proud of.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:12 PM   #3
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Re: Monarchy

Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


What are FYM'rs views on monarchies? I think I'm not necessarily opposed to them provided that they are largely ceremonial.
I wish the Bush Administration were a largely ceremonial monarchy. Or entirely ceremonial, even better.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:21 PM   #4
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Pretty much all of Northern Europe is some combination of mostly Germanic, mixed in with earlier Celtic ancestry, so it shouldn't really be surprising that their royal families are that way too.

It might be some surprise to people in that "English" is pretty much entirely Germanic in origin, all the way from the early migrations of Germanic Anglo-Saxons to the French-cultured Normans (e.g., "Norsemen," also of Germanic stock). In fact, had the Normans not been whores for all things "French," modern England would probably have much in common culturally with Scandinavia today, not just from an ancestral POV.

(Of course, it should also be noted that France's namesake, the Franks, were Germanic themselves.)

As for monarchies, in general, I find them interesting to study, historically, but I don't see too much use for them today. But I guess their value for each country with an old monarchy to decide for themselves.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:31 AM   #5
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I like the idea of non-partisan heads of state. I don't like it that our head of state is partisan. So, I like the idea of a constitutional monarchy. I wish we had one.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:51 PM   #6
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i'm glad canada has one.

i have no idea why.

to be honest, i wish the whole british empire thing had never dissolved the way it did, for canada's sake.

we'd have a far stronger voice against the americans if we were more tightly tied to britain like we used to.

that's a discussion for later...
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:27 PM   #7
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I'm a constitutional monarchist and debate about the subject quite frequently. What I find from a lot of people who are against constitutional monarchy is that they have no idea how it works in the first place. You can educate them all you want but at the end of the day they refuse to look at the facts. This is from experience and by no means referring to anyone on this forum as I find there is quite a few well read people on here

A non-partisan, head of state that represents everybody equally, I feel, is democracy working at it's best. The Sovereign holds the power but doesn't use it. The Government uses the power but doesn't hold it. Poifect!
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slipstream
I'm a constitutional monarchist and debate about the subject quite frequently.
So what nationality are you? I'm assuming Canadian, based on your location.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:32 PM   #9
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Yip, I'm a Brit/Canadian dual citizen.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:43 PM   #10
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Frequently I find people will get confused with absolute monarchy and constitutional monarchy. Here is a list of some modern constitutional monarchies -

Australia (shared monarch Elizabeth II)
Belize (shared monarch Elizabeth II)
Canada (shared monarch Elizabeth II)
Denmark
Japan
Jordan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand (shared monarch Elizabeth II)
Norway
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom (shared monarch Elizabeth II)
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slipstream
A non-partisan, head of state that represents everybody equally, I feel, is democracy working at it's best. The Sovereign holds the power but doesn't use it. The Government uses the power but doesn't hold it. Poifect!
On the other hand, it helps that Elizabeth II is very self-disciplined and stays out of politics. There is not necessarily any guarantee that her successors will maintain that kind of polity.

In a worse case scenario, you can have a nation like Thailand, whose monarch, while not officially in control, is widely worshiped by the populace and feels free to undermine democratically-elected governments as he sees appropriate. In other words, there are instances where the monarch can have unduly influence in a theoretically "democratic government," where even their mere presence can stand for something overtly political.

So while I agree that a monarch like Elizabeth II hurts no one and can be a symbol for something "greater," this is a position that can be abused, even symbolically.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


On the other hand, it helps that Elizabeth II is very self-disciplined and stays out of politics. There is not necessarily any guarantee that her successors will maintain that kind of polity.

They can take whatever view they have, but the UK can no longer legislate for Canada, so the monarch has no practical significance for us, regardless of their personal disposition.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


They can take whatever view they have, but the UK can no longer legislate for Canada, so the monarch has no practical significance for us, regardless of their personal disposition.
Canada of course cut all legal ties with the UK in 1982. This in my view the real date Canada became a country. The Queen of Canada certainly does have a significant role in Canada, she is Canada's head of state in her own right. The Sovereign's role in Canada is a very important one. It's an integral part of Canada's constitutional monarchy system and is one third of the Parliament of Canada, along with the Senate and the House of Commons. Canada as we currently know it would not exist without it.

Citizenship and laws flow from the Crown. The monarch is the embodiment of the Canadian state, in other words, it is Canada. The Sovereign is at the centre of the Canadian Constitution. HM the Queen is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Canadian Armed Forces and Honorary Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

From 2002-05, the Canadian Royal Family was involved in 269 Canadian engagements.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:45 PM   #14
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That folk like like Elizabeth, Harry, William, Charles or whoever can be held in such high esteem and do bugger all hard work to "earn" their fortune is a downright disgrace. It's like automatic nepotism.

Whether or not constitutional monarchs have power over anything anymore is beside the point. They shouldn't have been put into such a privileged position in the first place.

If we must have families who epitomise the term silver-spooner, than some other families should be given a go.

Let monarchy die....it's a part of our history I'm downright ashamed of and should be forgotten and buried in the past.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slipstream


Canada of course cut all legal ties with the UK in 1982. This in my view the real date Canada became a country. The Queen of Canada certainly does have a significant role in Canada, she is Canada's head of state in her own right. The Sovereign's role in Canada is a very important one. It's an integral part of Canada's constitutional monarchy system and is one third of the Parliament of Canada, along with the Senate and the House of Commons. Canada as we currently know it would not exist without it.
That's all highly debatable and very symbolic with almost no practical application in Canadian day-to-day life.

Frankly I'm not sure how many Constitutional experts would agree with you that the Crown's role is a significant one in Canada; it's certainly not a sentiment I've come across at all.
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