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Old 02-12-2003, 05:32 AM   #16
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You know, I think of it this way. Certainly, people are free to hate whomever they like in this nation, whether it be homosexuals or racial minorities; but never would it be considered acceptable to sponsor legislation to codify these prejudices into law. A lot of these arguments against homosexuals today were once used against black people in the first part of the twentieth century to justify segregation and whatnot, and it is disgusting. Unfortunately, I almost think it is going to be the same way--we'll have to wait fifty or more years until all the bigots die, and then we'll realize how ridiculous all these arguments really were.

These "Family" organizations, to me, are no different than the KKK or the Aryan Nation, who are obsessed with "preserving" the white race. Instead, they are obsessed with "preserving" Christianity (and it is amusing that with these racist groups, they consider themselves devout Christians as well in many cases); but who asked them to?

I also find it repugnant that religions--the supposed purveyors of love and decency--are the groups that are always immune to anti-discrimination laws. Isn't that sick when you think about it?

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Old 02-12-2003, 08:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
These "Family" organizations, to me, are no different than the KKK or the Aryan Nation, who are obsessed with "preserving" the white race. Instead, they are obsessed with "preserving" Christianity (and it is amusing that with these racist groups, they consider themselves devout Christians as well in many cases); but who asked them to?

I also find it repugnant that religions--the supposed purveyors of love and decency--are the groups that are always immune to anti-discrimination laws. Isn't that sick when you think about it?

Melon
Exactly!

See, it's religious people like these that Melon described that bug me. This is what I don't like about religion, right here.

Angela
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
sweet dee'

don't be thinking i voted for tim pawlenty. my vote was definately for independent tim penny.



me too!!!! And it's a damn shame he lost.
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Old 02-12-2003, 04:57 PM   #19
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Don't balme religion blame the idiots who use religion fo their own purposes. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of organized religion, being a child of the clergy means I know too much to ever see organized religion as hideously flawed. But lets keep in mind any religion is only as good as the people in it.

That said these actions are beyond digusting. Weather you consider homosexual sex a sin or not there's certainly nothing in the Christian faith that can be remotely considered as saying "Thou shalt hate and oppress gays." Such behaviour is fundamnetally un-Christian and a disgrace and violation of everything I believe in.
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:04 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Blacksword
Don't balme religion blame the idiots who use religion fo their own purposes. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of organized religion, being a child of the clergy means I know too much to ever see organized religion as hideously flawed. But lets keep in mind any religion is only as good as the people in it.
Yeah, that's true.

It isn't the religion I hate, it's the way some of the people in a religion act, that's my problem.

And that goes for anyone from any religion, whether you're Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or whatever-religious extremists from any religion are just not cool.

Quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword
That said these actions are beyond digusting. Weather you consider homosexual sex a sin or not there's certainly nothing in the Christian faith that can be remotely considered as saying "Thou shalt hate and oppress gays." Such behaviour is fundamnetally un-Christian and a disgrace and violation of everything I believe in.
Exactly.

Maybe I'm missing something-I swear, I will never understand what the "sin" is that homosexuals are committing. What is so "sinful" about homosexuality? I...don't...get it. I just don't.

Bono said this at a church during his tour of the heartland-he said that he never understood this hierarchy to sin, never understood how "sexual immorality" is higher up on the scale of sin than things like the church screwing around with people's money (that wasn't his exact quote, but you get the idea).

Perhaps he should've stopped in Minnesota and said that to those people up there.

Angela
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:19 PM   #21
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That is intriguing...considering that Minnesota has always been one of the most liberal states around.
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:47 PM   #22
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Originally posted by arw9797




me too!!!! And it's a damn shame he lost.
and lilly,

Do you think the Democrat was worse than this guy?

Jesse V. was a fluke - 3rd parties rarely win.

here are the results:
Quote:
Republican TIM PAWLENTY AND CAROL MOLNAU 999473 44.37

Democratic-Farmer-Labor ROGER D. MOE AND JULIE SABO 821268 ..36.46

Independence TIMOTHY J. (TIM) PENNY AND MARTHA R. ROBERTSON 364534 16.18


Green KEN PENTEL AND RHODA GILMAN 50589 ..2.25
by voting independent the Republican usually wins, Rep. are less likely to vote independent.
My Republican friends all credit Nader candidacy for positioning W to be selected as President.
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Bono said this at a church during his tour of the heartland-he said that he never understood this hierarchy to sin, never understood how "sexual immorality" is higher up on the scale of sin than things like the church screwing around with people's money (that wasn't his exact quote, but you get the idea).
People tend to resort to a hierarchy of sin in an effort to point out other people's sin. I've heard people decry homosexuality, then try and justify sexual sins of their own.
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep



Jesse V. was a fluke - 3rd parties rarely win.

Jesse Ventura won for this reason only: most of the people in this state that voted for him thought it would be "cool" to have a "celebrity" be governor. I can't tell you how many people I knew at the time that were between the ages of 18-24 that had never voted, didn't plan on voting, didn't think about voting until Jesse the Body's name was on that ballot. Jesse's 3rd party had little to do with him winning. He wanted to "shock the world" and he did by winning.

I did not vote for him but I do not think he did a bad job. I think the media hounded him because of who he used to be so he ran his mouth a little more than he should have. If his name would have been on the ballot this time around I would have voted for him because I didn't think he was such a bad governor.
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
here are the results:
by voting independent the Republican usually wins, Rep. are less likely to vote independent.
My Republican friends all credit Nader candidacy for positioning W to be selected as President.
It's very true, and people who think that Nader didn't derail Gore are delusional. But don't think I'm being some whiny liberal. The same happened to Republican candidates during the 1992 and 1996 Presidential elections with the candidacy of H. Ross Perot, although it is debatable if all the Perot voters would have voted Republican anyway. However, it definitely assured Clinton very comfortable victories in both elections.

Melon
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


People tend to resort to a hierarchy of sin in an effort to point out other people's sin. I've heard people decry homosexuality, then try and justify sexual sins of their own.
I think my favorite is divorce. This is one of the few sins explicitly condemned in the Gospels repeatedly by Jesus, but where is all the Christian right activism to re-criminalize divorce? Why aren't divorcees discriminated against at work? Because they certainly are stepping in my right as a Christian individual to look down upon them...

...that's precisely the logic behind this shit in Minnesota.

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Old 02-12-2003, 10:05 PM   #27
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I just realized my previous post had a rather bad typo in it it should read: "Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of organized religion, being a child of the clergy means I know too much to ever see organized religion as anything but hideously flawed."

Anyhow I too have a definite problem with this BS notion of heirarchy of sin. Even if there was one it would have to have opressing the poor sick and outcast as right at the top given that Christ's main message was about caring for these people. And gee suprise suprise what are those who bash gays most guilty of high up in their fancy middle, upper middle and upper class homes most guilty of. And how's about those right wing politicians who bash gays and then go off and commit adultry all over the place. Way to show the whole stance on homosexuality up for what it is: overcompensation for all your other sins. Honestly it's the easiest way to seem righteous to the religious right.

Definitely have to go with Melon on his statement about persecuting gays while not persecuting other sins which get one heck of a lot more air time in the Bible than homosexuality. Should we go out and stone adulter's again, whoops we were told not to judge and with that example too.

I can give my own personal interpretation of why I think homosexual sex is a sin. I can't speak for others though. It has a lot to do with my personal views on sexuality as a whole, so if i do get into it, it will be rather long.
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword
I can give my own personal interpretation of why I think homosexual sex is a sin. I can't speak for others though. It has a lot to do with my personal views on sexuality as a whole, so if i do get into it, it will be rather long.
Actually, I'd rather you didn't, because then I'll have to go into some prolonged debating, and I'm too exhausted to do it.

Anyhow, there is some interesting stuff on this subject from back in the Achtung Bubba era in this forum, so do a search on it, but please don't bump it forward with a reply.

Take care...

Melon
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Old 02-12-2003, 11:03 PM   #29
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I thought I'd check since I know how contentious this issue is. Casuing a firestorm is not conducive to having and open discussion and would detract from the original subject of this post.
Angela if you'd like to hear my reasons I can give you my ICQ or my MSN, as I don't have private messaging here.
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Old 02-12-2003, 11:13 PM   #30
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Blacksword, you win the Mr. Congeniality Award for the day, the week, and possibly the year.
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