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Old 08-13-2006, 06:07 PM   #121
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Originally posted by coemgen
I didn't mean "enjoy sinning." I meant, we still sin. That's it. I was trying to insert some hummor. Forgive me if it didn't work. My ultimate point was that even though we're Christians, and we strive to not sin, we sin.
I understand. Now that I can agree with. It was the phrase "like to" that threw me. I'm glad we agree.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:14 PM   #122
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However, I do not believe that you are held spirtually responsible for your sin if you do not know what sin is/if you do not know what right and wrong are.
Can't the same be said for people who've never heard of Christ or anything you would consider the truth?
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:22 PM   #123
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Can't the same be said for people who've never heard of Christ or anything you would consider the truth?
I've never said that people who have never heard of Christ automatically go to hell. I don't believe that, never have believed it.

In the New Testament, Paul basically says that no one has an excuse because all people have been presented with the truth. At that point, I would imagine that people are judged according to how they respond to what they know of the truth.

I do believe that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus the Christ, because the Bible records Christ himself as having said that.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:29 PM   #124
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In the New Testament, Paul basically says that no one has an excuse because all people have been presented with the truth.
And I think that probably rang true for the audience to which he was speaking, but not for the entire planet.

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At that point, I would imagine that people are judged according to how they respond to what they know of the truth.
I can agree with this.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:40 PM   #125
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


And I think that probably rang true for the audience to which he was speaking, but not for the entire planet.
I do not believe that every single person has heard of Jesus, that's for sure. However, I do think that everyone "of age" (the age being different for each individual) knows the distance between right and wrong unless the person is severely mentally handicapped or severely mentally ill.

*edited for typo only.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:48 PM   #126
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I'm done for now. Have a good night guys.

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Old 08-13-2006, 06:50 PM   #127
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I do not believe that every single person has heard of Jesus, that's for sure.
And what if you were born in another country of another religion, and you may have heard of Jesus, but it's not the whole truth of Jesus?

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


However, I do think that everyone "of age" (the age being different for each individual) knows the distance between wrong and wrong unless the person is severely mentally handicapped or severely mentally ill.
I agree to a certain point.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:54 PM   #128
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I'm done for now. Have a good night guys.
coemgen
Nighty night.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:58 PM   #129
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


And what if you were born in another country of another religion, and you may have heard of Jesus, but it's not the whole truth of Jesus?
If someone is taught something about the Gospel that is not the truth, and is never told the truth, I don't think that person will necessarily be held accountable for that. However, I also don't think it's an automatic excuse. If that person felt that their religion was wrong and felt convicted to seek the truth but didn't seek the truth, then he/she bears at least partial blame for not knowing the truth.
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:31 PM   #130
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Coemgen, neither you nor bordergirl answered my questions posed on page 7 of this thread. Thank you for the detailed recitation on salvation. You would make a fine Sunday School teacher. (I did read all of your hard work there, you are well-schooled in your theology...but can I have a coupon for Outback instead, Applebee's food and atmosphere sucks.)
That said, I was being facetious when I asked about what it meant to be "saved." I'm well-versed in the various Christian religions. I have read all of the salient religious texts as well as having studied the history of religion, from pantheism to jainism to buddhism to animism. The difference between us, I think (not believe), is that I view religion from an neurological, physiological, psychological, anthropological, historical and philosophical/ontological perspective.
Everyone's throwing around loaded terms like "sin" and postulating about how to be saved from eternal death...you're only sharing stories in order to make living with the fact that you are going to die more palatable. If you need to believe in a theology (read myth[s]) in order to treat your fellow beings well and avoid committing crimes--or to use your preferred vernacular: sins--knock yourself out. Just don't tread on me or other secular humanists or atheists or agnostics or freethinkers. (And don't worry about us committing crimes, most freethinkers have ethical/moral integrity.)
p.s.: have you noticed that the prison population is full of "believers" and nary an atheist.


Just a side note: Am I alone in thinking it's absurd to believe that Jesus was the first zombie?
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:55 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If someone is taught something about the Gospel that is not the truth, and is never told the truth, I don't think that person will necessarily be held accountable for that. However, I also don't think it's an automatic excuse. If that person felt that their religion was wrong and felt convicted to seek the truth but didn't seek the truth, then he/she bears at least partial blame for not knowing the truth.
In Catholic circles, there is a belief called "baptism by desire". It supposes a perfectly good person never heard of Jesus. Because this person was a perfectly moral person, he or she stands a good chance of achieving salvation. I believe this. I also believe it's presumptuous to assume you know who's going to be saved and who isn't. None of us know this stuff, only God does.
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Old 08-13-2006, 09:57 PM   #132
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JCR -- I'm sorry I didn't respond to your post on page 7. I hadn't even noticed it. I shall get to it now. : ) First off, God and Allah are very different, if you're going to cite the two different texts. You're right there. It's funny that the Koran mentions Christ about three times more than it does Mohammed, yet they consider him just a minor prophet.
The God of the OT and NT are the same. Believe it or not, Christ spoke more about judgement than the God of the OT. Plus, much of the OT focuses on Christ, believe it or not.
As far as it being OK to mix faiths, this is totally untrue. With all due respect, your example of the Mormons is pretty poor. The Bible and book of Mormon contridict each other tremendously. Plus, there's no historical proof of the cities the book of Mormon speaks of. This is recognized by the Smithsonian and other organizations. So yeah, they mix the two. So what. They mix lies with truth.

And yes, I'll switch your prize from Applebee's to Outback. You're putting up some good discussion, so I'll upgrade.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:25 PM   #133
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Thank you for the detailed recitation on salvation. You would make a fine Sunday School teacher. . . That said, I was being facetious when I asked about what it meant to be "saved." . . .
Forgive me on not picking up on this. My detector was turned off.

Quote:
Originally posted by JCR
Everyone's throwing around loaded terms like "sin" and postulating about how to be saved from eternal death...you're only sharing stories in order to make living with the fact that you are going to die more palatable. If you need to believe in a theology (read myth[s]) in order to treat your fellow beings well and avoid committing crimes--or to use your preferred vernacular: sins--knock yourself out. Just don't tread on me or other secular humanists or atheists or agnostics or freethinkers. (And don't worry about us committing crimes, most freethinkers have ethical/moral integrity.)
Loaded terms? Stories?
I chose to believe in Christianity because it makes the most sense to me. Plus, there's enough proof, for me at least, to take it as truth. Here's the thing, it all centers around Christ . . . I know that's painfully obvious.
OK, then we know Christ existed. This is historical fact. No serious scholar is going to deny this.

Then the question becomes, is Jesus who he said he was.
C.S. Lewis put it this way:
“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.”

So now we need proof that he's the Son of God, and not some nutjob. For me, I find this is in the more than 60 prophecies in the OT that point to Christ. Some of them were made 1,000 years before he came and many concern the crucifixion. These were made more than 500 years before crucifixion was a form of capital punishment.
Yeah, you could say that some of them Christ could've been well versed in, and then followed. However, there are some that weren't even up to him to fulfill. The best example is that his bones weren't broken during the crucifixion. This was a common practice to speed up the death. Yet, his legs weren't broken.See Psalm 34:20 and John 19:32-36. (Yes, I have a little book in front of me that explains this.)

It's been figured out that the probability for a human to fulfill 48 of the prophecies randomly would be 1 in 10 to the 157th. You're chances of winning a typical lottery are about 1 in 108 million.



Quote:
Originally posted by JCR
Just a side note: Am I alone in thinking it's absurd to believe that Jesus was the first zombie?
No. You're not alone. I don't think he was the first zombie either. I don't think he was a zombie at all.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:25 PM   #134
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It's funny that the Koran mentions Christ about three times more than it does Mohammed, yet they consider him just a minor prophet.
No, they don't.

Jesus is their second most important prophet after Muhammad.
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Old 08-13-2006, 10:30 PM   #135
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Forgive me anitram, I shouldn't have said minor. I just meant not the major one.

My point was, and I just found the stats, Jesus is mentioned 97 times. Muhammad 25.
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