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Old 08-13-2006, 12:18 AM   #106
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Our Humanity is enough. Our salvation comes not from trying to be like gods, but from trying to be more completely what we were created to be – human beings.
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Old 08-13-2006, 03:31 AM   #107
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The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself
I'd like to state that this is your BELIEF, it is not fact and does not ring true to everyone, including me. I do not have a wish to know "God" (quotations as I don't believe there even is one) and I don't feel "it" calling me.

I wasn't going to answer in this thread, as obviously I can't have a discussion about something I don't believe in AT ALL, but I am interested in others opinions. But when atheists are mentioned, being one, I feel someone should speak up for the team.

I don't like the thought processes that

1. Atheists are "missing" something in their life but not acknowledging God. Now there are plenty of people in this world including religious people who don't acknowledge your actual God, are these people missing something as well, or is it just the heathen atheists?

2. Atheists are more suceptable to weaknesses as we don't have anything to guide us, or because we don't believe in God then we don't have any morals or values because all morals and values come from the bible and religion.

Both of these arguments are not based on anything but incredulous from religious persons that we do not go along with blind faith (and I call it so, as there is nothing factual or "solid" to back up your claims)
Also, I feel that I can trust my own judgement, and make my way through my life on this earth, without having to have something higher to guide me.
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Old 08-13-2006, 04:01 AM   #108
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One is not born with inherent morality or immorality, but through philosophy we may moderate our actions.
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Old 08-13-2006, 11:54 AM   #109
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Yes.
The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself.

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence.

In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being.

"Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice." Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.


oh, good, it's settled then. what a complex and nuanced understanding of human history you have! i'm glad it all fits so well!

for all the whining we hear from some Christians about how their beliefs are disrespected on FYM, i hope we can keep this thread in mind -- it amazes me when people present articles of faith as irrefutable fact and feel perfectly free to sermonize without any shred of evidence beyond self-serving anedcotes and a few maxims gleaned from scripture and if some people speak up that, well, it's not like that for everyone, then there must be something wrong with the person asking the question because if we all had "real" faith or were "real" Christians we wouldn't be asking such questions. such is the stuff of fundamentalism -- when other's don't have legitimate disagreements, but the disagreements they have are functions of their own personal malfunctions.

i've asked a series of heavily existential questions, but we don't seem to be willing to step outside our comfortable little faith boxes. it would be great if we could have a good discussion about ontology without falling back on various tenets of faith that even the most devout must understand aren't shared by everyone.

more people aren't Christian than are. how breathtakingly arrogant to assume that there's simply something wrong with the rest of the population of the planet, and then turn around and use your little how-to manual (The Bible) to justify yourself to yourself.
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:42 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




oh, good, it's settled then. what a complex and nuanced understanding of human history you have! i'm glad it all fits so well!

for all the whining we hear from some Christians about how their beliefs are disrespected on FYM, i hope we can keep this thread in mind -- it amazes me when people present articles of faith as irrefutable fact and feel perfectly free to sermonize without any shred of evidence beyond self-serving anedcotes and a few maxims gleaned from scripture and if some people speak up that, well, it's not like that for everyone, then there must be something wrong with the person asking the question because if we all had "real" faith or were "real" Christians we wouldn't be asking such questions. such is the stuff of fundamentalism -- when other's don't have legitimate disagreements, but the disagreements they have are functions of their own personal malfunctions.

i've asked a series of heavily existential questions, but we don't seem to be willing to step outside our comfortable little faith boxes. it would be great if we could have a good discussion about ontology without falling back on various tenets of faith that even the most devout must understand aren't shared by everyone.

more people aren't Christian than are. how breathtakingly arrogant to assume that there's simply something wrong with the rest of the population of the planet, and then turn around and use your little how-to manual (The Bible) to justify yourself to yourself.
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Old 08-13-2006, 02:52 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
Our Humanity is enough. Our salvation comes not from trying to be like gods, but from trying to be more completely what we were created to be – human beings.

You didn't answer the questions.

Who's trying to be like gods here?

No offense intended, but could you speak in something other than religious platitudes? You remind me of the preacher on that Sheperd's Church show.

Salvation? I never understood the relious persons' need or desire or penchant for being saved. Saved from what?

Me thinks you need to get out of Texas grrrl.
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Old 08-13-2006, 04:23 PM   #112
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I'm jumping back in.

JCR, "saved" is a term that kind of makes me whince too, but it's actually an acurate statement. We all sin. You, me, Bono and, as much as Republicans don't want to hear it, George Bush.
Sin, to define more, can be seen as crimes against God. God is perfect, holy and pure -- i.e. the total opposite of us. We are selfish, flawed beings. His ways are right, our ways are too often wrong. We rebel against his very nature. The Bible (yes, I'm quoting the Bible! Take cover!) tells us the wages of sin is death. This refers to a spiritual death as well. So by our very nature, we go against God.
To have our crimes erased, or forgiven, something has to die in our place, for the wages of sin is death. It used to be people would sacrifice a lamb to "atone" for their sins. The lambs even had to be spotless, or "perfect."
That was B.C. Then came Christ.
Now in the A.D., Christ is considered our spotless lamb. He, being both fully God and fully human, lived a "spotless life" and died on the cross for all of humanity's sins. He could do this because he was God. For the same reason, he rose from the dead. (It would be so cool to be God for a day.) That's the genius of it. God came down here, into enemy territory, and beat death. He did this for all of us, too.
So here's the deal now, with God paying the penalty of death, we don't have to pay the price. This DOES NOT mean we have free reign to sin, as some people may think. However, when we do sin, and man do us Christians like to sin, we can humbly and sincerely ask for forgivness, and receive it with confidence if we do it remembering that Christ died for that very reason.

To sum it up, God created us and gave us free will. What fun would it be if we didn't have free will? We, being morally weak, decided to go the wrong way, and in respecting free will, God gave us the right to chose whether we want to make it right. He gave us the option of making a U-turn. It's not something we can make right, but something that has been made right through Christ. It's not our doing. That's called Grace. This is the Grace that Bono sings about in the song of the same name, and the Grace we hear about in "Amazing Grace."
God wanted a relationship with us, so he died for it to happen. We just have to want it too.

Sorry this is so long, if you've actually read all of this, you get five bonus points and I'll send you a gift certificate to Applebee's.
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:04 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
We all sin.
Why is this constantly thrown out when most of the planet doesn't even have a concept of the Christian idea of sin? I mean, really, it must grate on everyone's last nerve to constantly be reading this if they have a faith or a belief which it isn't part of.

And why is it that only Christians behave in this way? Why is it that we don't see dozens of posts on this forum starting authoritatively with "We will all be reincarnated" as if it's a statement of fact. Over and over and over again.
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:11 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
We all sin.
this is not an universal truth

it is your choice to believe it

it is more correct to say

"I believe, we all sin."


a universal truth?

"We all shit."
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:30 PM   #115
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anitram and deep, JCR asked about salvation and the need to be saved. Since it's a question directed toward a Christian concept, I, as a Christian, explained it.

In no way was my response meant to offend. I appologize if that's the case. However, since I believe it to be true, I'm going to treat it as fact. I would hope all of us would do that with our beliefs Otherwise, why believe it?
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:44 PM   #116
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coemgen,

i mentioned this before to others that post

"we are all sinners", as if it is a given.

so please don't think I am only picking on you.

there are many things I believe

I don't think I state them as facts,
perhaps I do, and then I should be called on it

I don't believe people are born sinners

but if someone wants to state
that he believes that he was born a sinner

there is no reason why I would challange his right to that belief

and the right to let that belief inform what actions and choices he makes for himself.
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:55 PM   #117
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deep, I see what you're saying. Thanks for sharing your feelings on this. Believe me, even I hate it when people get all preachy and think they know what they're talking about. I can easily admit I don't know everything. I have no problem saying that. However, in coming to this place called Free Your Mind, where we all share our perspectives and debate them, in a friendly manner, until we're blue in the face, I don't expect everyone to be required to always include the phrase "I believe that . . ." before they share their perspective. Isn't that a given here anyway?
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Old 08-13-2006, 05:58 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
coemgen,

i mentioned this before to others that post

"we are all sinners", as if it is a given.

so please don't think I am only picking on you.

there are many things I believe

I don't think I state them as facts,
perhaps I do, and then I should be called on it

I don't believe people are born sinners

but if someone wants to state
that he believes that he was born a sinner

there is no reason why I would challange his right to that belief

and the right to let that belief inform what actions and choices he makes for himself.
This is what I believe about sin.

I believe that people are born with the sin nature, which is the propulsion (the bent, the driving) to sin. However, I do not believe that this is equal to "being born a sinner". I do not believe that people are born sinners. If you have never sinned, I believe you are not a sinner. What can babies do that is "sin"? Babies don't sin. I believe that the moment you commit a sin, you become a "sinner". However, I do not believe that you are held spirtually responsible for your sin if you do not know what sin is/if you do not know what right and wrong are.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:02 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
and man do us Christians like to sin
I agree with almost everything you said, but this is one with which I don't agree.

I don't think that statement can be made as if it were true for all Christians. I think many people don't like to sin; that includes Christians and nonChristians alike.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:05 PM   #120
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I didn't mean "enjoy sinning." I meant, we still sin. That's it. I was trying to insert some hummor. Forgive me if it didn't work. My ultimate point was that even though we're Christians, and we strive to not sin, we sin.
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