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Old 08-11-2006, 07:31 PM   #91
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silja, I didn't mean to say you were an atheist, I was just refering to them in general. Thanks for the question. This dialogue is fun and important.

Have a great weekend in the country.
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Old 08-11-2006, 07:41 PM   #92
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Originally posted by Irvine511


and what about the opposite? the devout who have become atheists? those who have embraced atheism and wrapped themselves up in secular humanism and become much better, kinder, more compassionate people?

also, is your story missing a line? when did God reveal himself to John? further, doesn't someone who's having marital problems and drug abuse issues strike you as someone who's seeking to fufill that "hole" we've spoken about -- and don't just as many people fill that "hole" with other things that aren't drugs, with volunteerism, love, hard work, etc. i don't think it's an either/or proposition.
I know you're gone now, but I wanted to get back to you.

I have heard of people leaving their faith and finding happiness, but I have to question their faith. In many of these stories I've heard, the person either was taught horrible lies about the faith or they didn't experience a relationship with God, just empty religion.

Also, my whole point about John's encounter with God wasn't to simply reveal that he's a nice person now. He has a relationship with God now. That's the change. I did leave some lines out, too. After saying that, he felt a calmness come over him that brought him to tears. He then Christ. Another important part of the story, was that he also tried to fill the "God-shaped hole" with other religions first. He tried all kinds of stuff. In the end, a relationship with Christ gave him what he was looking for —*and more.

You're right, people do fill the God-shaped hole with good, positive things too. The relationship is still missing though. Does that negate what they're doing? Of course not. However, Christ tells us in the Bible that what we do for the poor, or those in need in whatever way, we do them to him. Buying a homeless person dinner, sharing a conversation with them and helping them find a place to live is an incredible act of kindness. However, to do it AND know that you're serving our mighty God at the same time, adds another deminsion to it.
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Old 08-11-2006, 08:21 PM   #93
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1stepcloser


Isn't having a relationship with your family and loved ones more important than have one with God?
[/QUOTE

It is interlaced:

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

The Christian family is a communion of persons, a sign and image of the communion of the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. In the procreation and education of children it reflects the Father's work of creation.

The family is the original cell of social life. It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love and in the gift of life. Authority, stability, and a life of relationships within the family constitute the foundations for freedom, security, and fraternity within society. The family is the community in which, from childhood, one can learn moral values, begin to honor God, and make good use of freedom. Family life is an initiation into life in society.
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Old 08-11-2006, 08:33 PM   #94
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Originally posted by coemgen
The fact is that we're wired to have a relationship with God. Many of us, even those of us striving to have a relationship with God, put other things in that God-shaped hole. It's never as fulfilling though. Trust me.
Yes.
The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself.

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence.

In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being.

"Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice." Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, "an upright heart", as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:23 PM   #95
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It is the natural society in which husband and wife are called to give themselves in love and in the gift of life.
Tell that to Bonobos!
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:49 PM   #96
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This thread is turning into a sermon on the mountnet. We are ONE in our humanity and that ought to be enough.
Bordergirl, with all due respect, just because humans have been seeking some sort of divinity to explain one's existence doesn't mean He /She/It actually exists.


"name a god we all agree"--Michael Stipe

To A_Wanderer: fuck yeah!
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:17 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl


Yes.
The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself.

Isn't this a matter of faith and not fact?
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Old 08-12-2006, 10:53 AM   #98
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Originally posted by JCR
This thread is turning into a sermon on the mountnet. We are ONE in our humanity and that ought to be enough.
Bordergirl, with all due respect, just because humans have been seeking some sort of divinity to explain one's existence doesn't mean He /She/It actually exists.
Humans have always attempted to make sense of our own existance. Our humanity is what binds us to one another, and in this collective state we have always searched for higher meaning. Beginning with the worshiping of sun, the moon, etc.

In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.

Humans have the vocation of "subduing" the earth as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator "who loves everything that exists", to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.
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Old 08-12-2006, 11:25 AM   #99
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Originally posted by annj
the spirit is not the soul.. the spirit is the life force which leaves your body when you die.. and the bible doesn't teach the soul is immortal it states the soul that sins dies.. the soul is actually you the person, in the bible even animals are souls

But always in the bible when it talks about souls it is referring to the living person when we die we go back to the dust didn't God say to Adam and eve dust you are and dust you will return.. he never once said their souls would live on
More on this:

The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person. But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming. This distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.
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Old 08-12-2006, 11:32 AM   #100
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it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul,
Some call that respiration and metabolism, and it is in a good many other animals. It may be wrapped up in beautiful verbiage but at the end of the day claims for the existence of human souls have been greatly exaggerated and in the absence of evidence the speculations on the nature of a soul must be restricted to the theological and not the physical.
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:13 PM   #101
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Some call that respiration and metabolism, and it is in a good many other animals. It may be wrapped up in beautiful verbiage but at the end of the day claims for the existence of human souls have been greatly exaggerated and in the absence of evidence the speculations on the nature of a soul must be restricted to the theological and not the physical.
Maybe, but 'something' makes our human hearts 'sing'.
Even before revealing himself to man in words of truth, God reveals himself to him through the universal language of creation, the work of his Word, of his wisdom: the order and harmony of the cosmos - which both the child and the scientist discover - "from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator," "for the author of beauty created them."
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:38 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Isn't this a matter of faith and not fact?
The Bible tells us it's fact.
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:41 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCR
This thread is turning into a sermon on the mountnet. We are ONE in our humanity and that ought to be enough.
Bordergirl, with all due respect, just because humans have been seeking some sort of divinity to explain one's existence doesn't mean He /She/It actually exists.


"name a god we all agree"--Michael Stipe

To A_Wanderer: fuck yeah!
Unfortunately, the fact that we're one in our humanity isn't enough.

As far as Stipe's statment, although I have a tremendous respect for the man and his work, it's not that easy. We can't just follow whatever path feels good or mix faiths together and make up our own faith. Truth isn't in fashion.
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:45 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


The Bible tells us it's fact.
So then it is faith?
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Old 08-12-2006, 03:16 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Unfortunately, the fact that we're one in our humanity isn't enough.

As far as Stipe's statment, although I have a tremendous respect for the man and his work, it's not that easy. We can't just follow whatever path feels good or mix faiths together and make up our own faith. Truth isn't in fashion.
Why isn't the fact that we are one in our humanity not enough?
When Stipe sang "name a god we all agree" he was attempting to point out that it is impossible for everyone to agree on who/what he/she/it is. For example God and Allah are said to be the one in the same, but the words in their respective books reveal differing natures. Even the God of the old testament is different from the new testament. If God is unchanging, all-knowing, all-powerful ect. how do you account for these variations? And who says we can't mix faiths together? Mormons have mixed Christian notions with their own and ole Joe Smith elaborated on the Christian faith and gave them a supposed record of christian history in north america. Luther did a similar thing. I could cite more examples but I hope you get my point without having to do so. You are absolutely correct in your statement that truth isnt in fashion, religion has been trying to put a stake in the heart of truth since and even before Galileo. What do you think the Dark Ages were about? You, and bordergirl are assuming that the Bible is the word of one supreme being, when in fact it is the writings of men (and later revised and edited by monks) who claimed inspiration from "God" (I might add that some of these men were quite mad...have you read Leviticus? He's one Divine asshole in that section of "scripture."And Allah is one intolerant bastard in the Koran.)
Joan Didion said it best when she wrote in the title essay of "The White Album": "We tell ourselves stories in order to live."
Now, I 'm not bashing you or bordergirl on your right to your own faiths, but stop speaking as if you have the cornerstone on capital 't' truth.
"All we need is love, dunt-dunt-dunt-dunt-da-da"

p.s. bless the beasts and the bonobos
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