Mighty God

[netminder0]

So you feel that there is no possibility, no chance whatsoever, that there exists within every human a soul? I just want to know what leads you to conclude this. Is it because we can't see the soul? Or that there is no way to test the possibility of a soul existing? Im just wondering.

 

[A_Wanderer]

There is a possibility in that anything may be possible, but the margin that there is a soul is at the moment impossibly small. The concequence of this is that we are still sentient animals with intelligence and communication skills and we should try to maintain a society that is best for the most people and diviersity.

In the absence of a soul it doesn't diminish the importance of empathy, which is an important human emotion/behaviour.

 

[netminder0]

But why is the possibility so small? I agree that anything is possible. I accept the fact that it is possible we don't have a soul, and that there is no God that exists. But what reasons do we have that would lead us to know the possibility of us having a soul is so miniscule?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Our universe is made up of matter and energy (which themselves are interchangable), human beings are made up of molecules and the sum of their interactions are the walking and taking human, our conciousness resides in our brains which are real, composed of matter and have mass. If our souls truly leave the body and they interact in the universe and hold interacting information then we should be able to measure it leaving. Such a process has never been observed and there is no reason to suppose it should.

The probabilty that our understanding of matter and the universe is so fundamentally wrong and that all the evidence that we have amassed to that effect is really null is low with our current comprehension thus the idea of a unique human soul should not really ilicit consideration as a genuine thing unless the evidence swings around and a falsifiable theory is presented and accepted that demonstrates it's plausible existence.

 

[netminder0]

Yes, if our souls leave the body and remain in this universe, then we may be able to measure this process, however, what if they don't interact with this universe? Also, how do we know that we would be able to measure or identify this process? We don't know that for sure at all. Just because it cannot be observed or measured, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You say that unless we have evidence for human souls, then we shouldn't give any consideration to their existence ... well I can say that unless you are able to prove that human souls don't exist, then we must assume that they may exist.

This argument just circles ... my point, however, is that we must admit there is a 'good' possibility that we do have souls. As this cannot be proven true or false, there is an equal chance that souls do and don't exist.
It is important to remember that just because something is not visible, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

[U2DMfan]

Where does the energy in a human body go when it dies?

 

[U2DMfan]

thus the idea of a unique human soul should not really ilicit consideration as a genuine thing unless the evidence swings around and a falsifiable theory is presented and accepted that demonstrates it's plausible existence.

What about all the dark matter in space?
Is that matter or energy and how do you measure it?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Dark matter is postulated because rotation of galaxies is inconsistent with the ammount of visible matter, it is a hypothetical matter particle but it would have gravitational attraction - it was invented to solve a problem in cosmology; dark matter may not exist and our understanding of gravitation may be completely wrong (and given that science is a progressive system of knowledge that is a good thing).

Where does the energy in a human body go when it dies?

Metabolic reactions cease, cells stop making ATP and whatever heat was in our bodies will just radiate out in the same way that a pie cools to room temperature when you take it out of the oven, energy is not a spiritual essence.

 

[JanuaryStar]

I'm always so sad by the fact that whenever questions like 'do others things exist than just us', for example if souls exist, as questioned here, science takes a big part. I know science has a big influence on our world, and we know that we have had a lot of good things from it, but science isn't all...

I believe that there are other things, more things between heaven and earth than meets the eye. So I keep believing that, and that's all I wanted to say...

Carry on with the thread.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Yes, if our souls leave the body and remain in this universe, then we may be able to measure this process, however, what if they don't interact with this universe? Also, how do we know that we would be able to measure or identify this process? We don't know that for sure at all. Just because it cannot be observed or measured, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You say that unless we have evidence for human souls, then we shouldn't give any consideration to their existence ... well I can say that unless you are able to prove that human souls don't exist, then we must assume that they may exist.

This argument just circles ... my point, however, is that we must admit there is a 'good' possibility that we do have souls. As this cannot be proven true or false, there is an equal chance that souls do and don't exist.
It is important to remember that just because something is not visible, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

A_wanderer has provided ample information reinforcing the logical conclusion based on empirical evidendce as to why a soul doesn't exist, perhaps you should give us some evidence as to why you believe a soul DOES exist. Bearing in mind what you have told us thus far is totally applicable to the complex neurochemical reactions of a human creating a subterfuge of a soul and experiences of a God.

 

[Judah]

I'd also like to ask people who believe in a soul a question or two: Why? Is it because you inherently feel that there's a soul? Is it because you think there's "gotta be more to life than just this existence,", i.e. there's gotta be a soul that lives forever in some other form? Is it because you have a belief in a God and a belief in a soul, then, goes hand in hand? Can you have a belief in God and also not believe in an afterlife or a concept of a soul?

Just wondering...

 

[BVS]

See ... this is partly what I meant by being "mature" in this discussion. I said my parents "claimed" to be Christian, because I don't know if they truly are or not.

I'm not sure why "maturity" is being questioned here with my statment.

But it isn't your right or within your power to know, that's why it came off so, and that's why this discussion was doomed from the beginning.

 

[netminder0]

Well BonoVox, we'll see just how doomed this conversation ends up. I think A_Wanderer and I are having a pretty decent conversation ... without anyone flaming or anything. And a few others are chirping in at times too which is cool. So we will just have to wait and see. Anyways ... I'm just going to move on.

A_Wanderer, I just want to agree that I don't think energy is a spiritual essence either. I think that the spirit/soul is something of an entirely different realm ... the spiritual realm, and I think this is why we cannot detect it in any way.
Aussie, there has been no evidence stated yet as to why the soul does not exist. Only the fact that we cannot detect it, which is no proof at all.

The reason that I believe in a soul may not seem very convincing to others, but it makes all the sense in the world if you truly are open to the fact that the human soul could exist.

The Bible says that we have a soul. It says that there is existence beyond this lifetime. The reason I believe? It was all written about in a historical document thousands of years ago.
Now believing the Bible is somewhat of a process ... but we must approach it and its claims as we would any other historical document.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

The Bible says that we have a soul.

I'm curious. Where exactly does it say this?

 

[netminder0]

The soul/spirit is what lives on after our physical bodies die. So any reference to life beyond this one is speaking of us all possessing this eternal element to our lives. Jesus Himself said on the cross, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" - Luke 23:46.

There are other spots as well, but I would have to find them.

 

[verte76]

I think God is the most important concern in life, but He's not the only important one. I'm a liberal practicing Roman Catholic. I don't try to convert people. If they want to know more about my faith, I generally refer them to the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA) at church, they know more about Christianity than I ever will.

 

[edgeboy]

How can God love us if he does not reveal himself to us in a way we can understand? God is suppose to be our father right so would a father never make it clear to his
child what he expects of them?

 

[netminder0]

I agree that God is the most important, and that there are also other things that are important too ... such as loving people around us, and being kind. But Jesus said, "'... and you shall be witnesses of Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'" - Acts 1:8

Jesus calls His followers to tell the world of the good news of Jesus' death for the world.

 

[annj]

the spirit is not the soul.. the spirit is the life force which leaves your body when you die.. and the bible doesn't teach the soul is immortal it states the soul that sins dies.. the soul is actually you the person, in the bible even animals are souls

Jesus himself referred to lazarus as sleeping.. in Ecclesiastes it also say when you die you cannot feel or see or hear anything.. death is the opposte of life which is existence to none existence.
You are conscious of nothing,


The problem is that translating spirit and soul from the original greek and hebrew have got mixed up.. when they mean two entirely different things and also the pagan doctrine stemming from babylonian and greek teaching that the soul lives on after death somehow, which was adapted by Christianity as a biblical teaching which is why its still being taught in churches

Spirit is the life giving force,
when Jesus said father onto you I entrust my spirit he was actually meaning that he knew God would ressurrect him with the that life force.. in other words God had the power to bring him back to life ... which he did

But always in the bible when it talks about souls it is referring to the living person when we die we go back to the dust didn't God say to Adam and eve dust you are and dust you will return.. he never once said their souls would live on

and that life force.. the spirit returns to God who has the power to resurrect us.. in other words we are stored in Gods memory until that time of the great resurrection when he will give us new and better bodies and return that life force(spirit) and we will once more be living souls..

so in fact A_wander is right, when we die we do not go on existing in some floaty form beyond the grave the energy life force leaves us when we die we simply cease to exist and return to dust that is the wages of sin.. death..

its much like pulling a plug on a computer.. no electic ..no computer working

eletricity is not personfied neither is the Gods spirit it is just Gods power source he uses to make things live and which he can use to bring people back to life which he promises to do, Jesus showed he had this power when he walked on earth when he brought people back from the dead..

would there be any point of the resurrection if people died and lived on in some other form which they consider better?

and yet the resurrection was one of his main teachings and the Bible states that death is God's enemy which he is going to do away with.. not some tool for people to pass onto some other form of living...

The truth is when we die we cease to exist until God, who has everyone in his memory can bring us back.. that is why it is referred to as a kind of a sleep, because the wonderful hope for us all is that God can wake us up into existence again

 

[netminder0]

And in order for God to bring us back, we all must have a spirit that can be resurrected. This means that there is indeed life after this one, for everyone.

 

[anitram]

This means that there is indeed life after this one, for everyone.

Well unless you're Mr. # 144,001. Cuz he's shit out of luck.

 

[Irvine511]

And in order for God to bring us back, we all must have a spirit that can be resurrected. This means that there is indeed life after this one, for everyone.

and this is why religion works.

because we are scared to die.

 

[netminder0]

Are you scared to die? I can say with absolute honesty that I am not scared to die in any way.

Also, Mr. 144,001 does have life beyond this one ... so do you, me, and everyone else.

 

[Irvine511]

Are you scared to die? I can say with absolute honesty that I am not scared to die in any way.

of course you're not; you have religion.

see how well it works?

 

[netminder0]

I don't have religion ... I have God.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't have religion ... I have God.

well, if you want to get semantical, let me point out that you have a belief in God.

which is like a religion.

and it is this belief that has made you not afraid to die.

and more power to you.

 

[netminder0]

And if you put it that way ... everyone has religion. Even the belief that there is no God is a religion.

 

[Irvine511]

fair enough.

hence, i'm a passionate agnostic.

 

[nbcrusader]

And if you put it that way ... everyone has religion. Even the belief that there is no God is a religion.

So we DO teach religion in school!

 

[Harry Vest]

Just one question though...
What about the repentant thief next to Jesus on the cross?
When Jesus was speaking to him didn't he say something like "today I shall be with you in paradise" . How does that jive with the "sleep" theory...or are there two different deaths???