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Old 08-15-2006, 01:44 AM   #196
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Yeah, I've done the search, but I've found the definition of life between scientist, embryologists and pro-lifers is much different.
Not much difference in the definition of life between embryologists and prolifers. Embryologists say that human/individuality life begins with the zygote stage.


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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Then if you consider 25% of preganacies end in miscarriage(healthy women), most in the first 12 weeks, these numbers don't speak much for God's desire to force the issue of life beginning at conception.
You can only make that assumption if you think that miscarriages are caused by God. I do not think that; it is nature, and says absolutely nothing about God's view of life beginning at conception.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:08 AM   #197
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Embryologists say that human/individuality life begins with the zygote stage.
Individuality is not sentience in this context.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:20 AM   #198
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
With all the accusations of "legislating morality" flying around, I think that people should keep these 2 things in mind:

(1) The evolution of mankind is taught in our school systems, despite the wishes of a large portion of our population. If evolution were an undeniable fact, that would be one thing. But it is called a theory because it is not undeniable fact. Is it right to force this theory upon the children of those whom do not subscribe to the theory?
But it is a scientific fact with a very high confidence - in terms of scientific fact the theory is much more sound than general relativity. It is applied across all of the biological sciences and yields profound insights into the natural world, to discard the grand unifying theory of biology that can explain practically all the currently known facts in the name of theology in a science class is wrong, and regardless of how this sizable majority feels a secular education system simply cannot endorse their theology, if they want to have their kids put at severe disadvantage if they ever wanted to pursue a career in biomedical research or zoology (practically any biology related field) then they can send their kids to a religious school. Evolution is a fact - Natural Selection is a theory.
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(2)The left has long screamed and hollered that morality should be taught at home, not in the schools. But consider the distribution of condoms in the school. Many parents' morality is to tell their children "do not have sex unless you're married". Parents have a right to instill this morality in their children. However, the school, when it distributes condoms are instilling their own particular morality; the morality: "well, we believe you're going to be weak and have sex anyway, so here's some condoms."
And obviously those kids who were raised to abhor sex before marriage will not go out and fornicate while those who didn't have such parenting will be protected from some nasty diseases and potential pregnancies (with associated abortions) so it only protects more people.
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Why should the school be able to instill a morality that clashes with the morality of the parents, especially when the parents' morality of abstainance is more effective in fighting disease and unwanted pregnancy than so-called "safe sex"?
If the parents genuinely oppose sex education can they not simply have their children waivered from it. Furthurmore abstinence only may be 100% in principle but a good many lack such moral fortitude and their ignorance may cost them dearly.
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It's ridiculous. Some people don't want the government telling them how to run their own lives, but have no problem with the schools instilling a contradictory set of moral values than what their neighbors teach their own kids at home.
Well obivously the solution may be to just do away with state schools and solve this apparent contradiction, or if we must have state education make certain that it gives factual information and teaches children responsibility.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:30 AM   #199
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Originally posted by nathan1977


But isn't this more the fault of a democratic, representative government? "I may not agree with what you say," goes the old quote, "but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Criticizing those whose beliefs run counter to yours is one thing -- criticizing them for putting their beliefs into the public marketplace of ideas (when those with complete opposing views have the same right, and make use of it every day) is another.
Legislation and enforcement is not the marketplace of ideas, it is violating the rights of other taxpaying citizens; belief must be neither promoted or percecuted by the government and the best way to do that is to keep it 100% away and allow people to practice their faith in a way that doesn't hurt others.
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Old 08-15-2006, 04:35 AM   #200
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If human life begins at conception, as is the general consensus amongst embryologists, why do you see abortion as a "right"? There were no "abortion rights" until 1973. Prior to 1973, the courts had embraced the scienctific testimony of those who knew such things, the embyologist.
If we take an cluster of cells as life then our classification of death for organ donation (brain death) must also go out the window. But of course opposition to euthanasia and pulling the plug are another front in this cultural war.
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Old 08-15-2006, 09:24 AM   #201
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You can only make that assumption if you think that miscarriages are caused by God. I do not think that; it is nature, and says absolutely nothing about God's view of life beginning at conception.
Well I just don't get how anyone can argue that life begins at conception when between the amount of fertilized eggs that don't imbed and miscarriage, somewhere between 30-50% of "concieved life" doesn't make it to or even through the first stages of development. Yet you never hear pro-lifers crying for them.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:01 AM   #202
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I am very glad you said this and agree wholeheartedly and especially appreciate you opening this to non-religious thought. Frequently, we lack a willingness to lay open all beliefs for discussion (global warming comes to mind).




why ruin a nice post with such an obvious dig?
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:06 AM   #203
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can we please, please, please not devolve into an abortion thread?

please?

you see, THIS is precisely why we have such a hard time discussing religion, both in FYM and in the US, because it ALWAYS wraps itself up in politics, because certain political beliefs and social practices are ASSUMED to be concurrent with God's wills and wishes, and people think that they cannot correctly practice their faith if they don't make loud pronouncements about condoms or abortion -- please, show me the bible passages where Jesus talks about about condoms in high school or the legality of abortion.

GOP -- God's Own Party?

oh, sorry, Hezbullah already has that trademarked.
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Old 08-15-2006, 10:57 AM   #204
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why ruin a nice post with such an obvious dig?
That wasn't a dig at you, but at the nature of other topics we discuss. There are plenty of people who won't even discuss the possibility that global warming doesn't exist.
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Old 08-15-2006, 11:18 AM   #205
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
There are plenty of people who won't even discuss the posibility that global warming doesn't exist.

and there are people who think the earth is flat ...
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Old 08-15-2006, 11:32 AM   #206
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Were you sincere in your openness to discuss issues? I took that at face value. I hope I am not wrong.
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:05 PM   #207
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Were you sincere in your openness to discuss issues? I took that at face value. I hope I am not wrong.


how relativist of you. are all ideas and thoughts of equal value?

we can discuss issues, but discussion is impossible without a basic level of knowledge.

the Universe was created by a Ham Sandwich!

gravity does not exist!

why aren't you open to these ideas?

just because we are open to all ideas doesn't mean that all ideas are equally worthy of our time and effort and consideration. when we have substantial scientific evidence in favor of global warming (or the fact of evolution), it seems to me that what deserves to be debated is not "is global warming a myth?" but "to what extent is human activity altering the climate."
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:54 PM   #208
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You can raise what ever issue or idea you think you can back up.

Scientists do not agree on Global Warming. The heavy influence of politics limits debate on this topic.

If you think there are topics not worthy of debate, perhaps you can have Yolland develop such a list.
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:01 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
You can raise what ever issue or idea you think you can back up.

Scientists do not agree on Global Warming. The heavy influence of politics limits debate on this topic.

If you think there are topics not worthy of debate, perhaps you can have Yolland develop such a list.



can we not distinguish between what i was originally talking about -- matters of belief, such as, how do i live my life? -- versus topics that are contingent upon having a basic level of knowledge before one can meaningfully participate? go check out the "Is Boy a Gay Album" thread i linked to a little while ago to understand how difficult it is to have any sort of meaningful discussion when people are simply uninformed on a particular topic such as the posters in that thread who were simply uninformed as to what Queer Theory was and how it is practiced.

or do we just create a rule/principle and then abide by it at all costs, nevermind distinctions and nuance?
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:06 PM   #210
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