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Old 08-14-2006, 07:55 PM   #181
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Originally posted by anitram


Huh?

I'm not talking about Papal decrees. Are you purposely misunderstanding me?

I'm talking about groups who want to legislate abortion rights, control access to birth control, pass through bigoted marriage amendments and so on.
Papal decrees.....that's a given but even when those are issued, and the Pope is talking to his Peeps, he still gets criticized.....

'What offends me are Christians who I feel have perverted and politicized the faith to further their own ends. The ones who would like to push their beliefs... "

Your above quote leads to this for me:

Wouldn't you kinda expect those religious to use their voices/votes to defend unborn life? "Religion" is not even the entire picture here. There are many non-religious persons who are involved in the defense of human life. It goes hand in hand with the justice movement, since it covers the dignity of all people.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:00 PM   #182
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Originally posted by BorderGirl

Wouldn't you kinda expect those religious to use their voices/votes to defend unborn life? "Religion" is not even the entire picture here. There are many non-religious persons who are involved in the defense of human life. It goes hand in hand with the justice movement, since it covers the dignity of all people.
I'd expect them to defend born life. The unborn are innocent, but when that child is born to a single mother on welfare, then it's a burden on society.

I don't necessarily like the idea of abortion but I understand why it exists in today's world.

But put this issue on the side because no good can come of it anyway on FYM.

What about the Christian pharmacist who won't give me the birth control pill? I have a diagnosed genetic disorder which requires me to sythetically maintain my hormone levels all my life. I cannot get the necessary medication because some guy decided that his God doesn't want me to be having sex. To you that's reasonable. To me, it isn't, and he should be out of a job, no questions asked.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:22 PM   #183
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Originally posted by anitram
I think yolland said it best in his post.

All these God threads in FYM end up being about Christians who come in and offer their beliefs as it if were facts.

Those who have been here a long time know that when there have been attempts to discuss other faiths or concepts, like for example karma or reincarnation, it only resulted in the same thing - Christians coming in to try and dispel them with their concept of grace. You see it in the atheist/agnostic threads too, it's always the Christians who need to come in and present their views on sin, salvation, Jesus and whatever else. You tell me how many times we've seen in here a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim, etc come in and behave in the same manner? Never? Yeah, pretty much.

Therefore I no longer believe it's possible to discuss "God" here - maybe the Christian God, yes, but anything else? Good night and good luck, cuz it ain't gonna happen.
Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, but when I’ve read “atheists” threads, they are usually framed in light of Christianity – not Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Was it Christians spoiling the atheist thread, or the atheist thread with a dose of antagonism towards Christians? The abundance of finger pointing (or characterizing some people’s faith as weak) is unnecessary. Frankly, while there is plenty of sharing of views, there is also plenty of posting to antagonize others as well.


But, perhaps this is what was intended when general discussions of Christianity were moved to FYM in the first place.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:23 PM   #184
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Originally posted by anitram


I'd expect them to defend born life.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:23 PM   #185
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Originally posted by anitram
I'm talking about groups who want to legislate abortion rights, control access to birth control, pass through bigoted marriage amendments and so on. These are not people speaking to YOU, they are people who are trying to politicize their religion to restrict the rights of the rest of us who don't follow their beliefs in the first place. So yes, I'll criticize all I want.
Perhaps the criticism is misplaced. You may not agree with these policy decisions, but there is not a perfect correlation between the policy decisions and a religious belief.

There are plenty of non-Christians who support a marriage amendment, plenty of non-Christians who can see abortion as murder, and so on.

Using these issues as proxy for "forcing religious belief" on others is misplaced.

As soon as we get anything close to a Church of England, I would agree with you.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:33 PM   #186
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
There are plenty of non-Christians who support a marriage amendment, plenty of non-Christians who can see abortion as murder, and so on.


firstly, i think it would be a fallacy not to see these movements as primarily (not soley) staffed by those who would define themselves as very religious.

and it amazes me how many people can suddenly find religion when they're grasping to defend their prejudices.

also, in regards to an earlier post, i would understand any belief -- religious or not -- that is unopen for discussion as a sign of weakness and/or insecurity in the belief itself. it's those who are willing to hold strong beliefs but test them, tear them apart, engage in rigorous self-criticism that impress me the most.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:36 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


What about the Christian pharmacist who won't give me the birth control pill? I have a diagnosed genetic disorder which requires me to sythetically maintain my hormone levels all my life. I cannot get the necessary medication because some guy decided that his God doesn't want me to be having sex. To you that's reasonable. To me, it isn't, and he should be out of a job, no questions asked.
Don't presume things about me please.
If you are going to a secular clinic then there is no reason for a pharmacist (a dispensor of medication) to question any part of your prescription, as that is between you and your doctor. There is nothing reasonable about this situation---you should take legal action.
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:45 PM   #188
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Originally posted by anitram


I'd expect them to defend born life. The unborn are innocent, but when that child is born to a single mother on welfare, then it's a burden on society.
It's a trickle-down effect.....which starts with the born humans....who else could do the saving??, surely not those without voices.
If you're interested in justice then work for the dignity of all.
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Old 08-14-2006, 09:49 PM   #189
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Originally posted by Irvine511
also, in regards to an earlier post, i would understand any belief -- religious or not -- that is unopen for discussion as a sign of weakness and/or insecurity in the belief itself. it's those who are willing to hold strong beliefs but test them, tear them apart, engage in rigorous self-criticism that impress me the most.
I am very glad you said this and agree wholeheartedly and especially appreciate you opening this to non-religious thought. Frequently, we lack a willingness to lay open all beliefs for discussion (global warming comes to mind).

Concurrent with the openness to discuss an issue is the willingness to seek understanding of the subject and understanding of the other person's beliefs. I say this as a general statement (not directed to you) as the ease with which the tear down quip replaces the understanding seeking question.

I would also hope the tearing apart comes from the desire to understand, rather than the expression of disapproval. At the same time, we must all acknowledge that others may disapprove of beliefs and how they are applied.
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Old 08-14-2006, 11:16 PM   #190
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, but when I’ve read “atheists” threads, they are usually framed in light of Christianity – not Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Was it Christians spoiling the atheist thread, or the atheist thread with a dose of antagonism towards Christians? The abundance of finger pointing (or characterizing some people’s faith as weak) is unnecessary. Frankly, while there is plenty of sharing of views, there is also plenty of posting to antagonize others as well.


But, perhaps this is what was intended when general discussions of Christianity were moved to FYM in the first place.
You're right about all of that. How quickly people have let themselves forget those threads.
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Old 08-14-2006, 11:44 PM   #191
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I'd like you to prove this. I'd like you to show the general consensus amongst embryologists that defines life, the way you define life, at conception.
I would like you to look up "embryologists" and "life begins" on Google. You will see what I'm talking about. And I'm not just talking about Christian sites; There are many objective sites that have no ties to the prolife movement or any religious organization.

Take, for instance, this quote from wisegeek.com:

"Cloning and in vitro fertilization have both been subject to tremendous debate. Part of the problem lies within each embryology textbook. They all state that life begins at the moment of conception. While it is true that some form of life begins at conception, the degree, value and quality of such a life is not addressed. Hence, abortion proponents and opponents have been arguing about this concept before and since the legalization of abortion."

Now, take the terms "embryology textbooks" and "life begins" and Google them. You will see listing after listing restating the idea that every embryology book in existence states that life begins at conception.
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Old 08-14-2006, 11:51 PM   #192
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Originally posted by anitram


I'd expect them to defend born life. The unborn are innocent, but when that child is born to a single mother on welfare, then it's a burden on society.
They do defend born life, anitram. Prolife and Christians groups are heavily involved in housing, feeding and caring for the homeless. In fact, many, if not most, of the shelters and missions are started by Christian groups. And what about the missionaries who put their own lives on the backburner to go live in 3rd world countries to feed hungry children and help the poor build their communities? And shall I even name all the Christian-founded charity organizations that are of such tremendous help, like Compassion International, World Vision, Feed The Children, etc.?

Maybe you aren't saying this, but I have read on this forum, and others, the idea that prolifers care about the unborn but not the born. That idea is total rubbish.
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Old 08-15-2006, 12:12 AM   #193
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

While it is true that some form of life begins at conception, the degree, value and quality of such a life is not addressed.
Yeah, I've done the search, but I've found the definition of life between scientist, embryologists and pro-lifers is much different.

First let's consider conception. Most will define this as when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Now that fertililized egg must then implant itself into the uterus. The number(and I can't find the exact number right now) of fertilized eggs that do not ever implant themselves into the uterus are flushed out with the woman's next menstrual cycle.

Then if you consider 25% of preganacies end in miscarriage(healthy women), most in the first 12 weeks, these numbers don't speak much for God's desire to force the issue of life beginning at conception.


Yes the division of cells to start forming human life may occur then but life as we know it does not.
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:07 AM   #194
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Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, but when I’ve read “atheists” threads, they are usually framed in light of Christianity – not Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Was it Christians spoiling the atheist thread, or the atheist thread with a dose of antagonism towards Christians? The abundance of finger pointing (or characterizing some people’s faith as weak) is unnecessary. Frankly, while there is plenty of sharing of views, there is also plenty of posting to antagonize others as well.
Even though i am refraining from writing in here, I shall adress this comment because I bascially don't believe it to be true. I was not antagonistic at ALL in my athesit thread. You chose to interpeat my words as antagonising through your own ideas not mine. I never said Christians were crazy, or assholes, or pathetic or anything. I call THOSE words offensive and atagonistic. Just because 80's took offence to me saying faith is like a figment of the imagination



figment

noun

1. An illusory mental image: daydream, dream, fancy, fantasy, fiction, illusion, phantasm, phantasma, reverie, vision. See real/imaginary.
2. Any fictitious idea accepted as part of an ideology by an uncritical group; a received idea: creation, fantasy, fiction, invention, myth. See belief/unbelief, real/imaginary.


http://www.answers.com/topic/figment

^ I think that shows why I used that term.

Secondly, I think the reason why Christian faith vs atheism happened was because people of other religions didn't come in and start saying things like 'you must have no morals' 'how can you care about anyone or life when you don't value you it' yada yada, and basically seem to take it PERSONALLY that some people didn't believe for one second that their faith was real. For your information, a member who is buddist asked me to email her which i did. We shared ideas and opinions and that was great. At no point did she call me wrong for being an atheist, and take affront at me not being a believer (though truth be told buddism isn't really a faith based religion)

So it comes down to this. Why do Christians seem to get the most upset and out of joint when their Christ and or beliefs are questioned? Like Irvine said, I respect the ones that come in and say 'interesting theory, but I still believe' rather then getting all pissed off and then back u their claims by saying their faith is fact, which is certainly is not.

So no, i dont think I or some other people posting in the athesit thread were necessarily antagonistic, and the reason that shit went down is because some Christians wouldnt leave the damn issue alone!
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Old 08-15-2006, 01:35 AM   #195
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Just because 80's took offence to me saying faith is like a figment of the imagination
That's not the only thing that has been said against Christians in these types of threads, amy.
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