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Old 10-30-2005, 08:46 PM   #76
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Re: Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[/Q]
what are the consequences -- good or bad -- of making abortion illegal? what would this world look like? what would be different, what would be the same, and what would women do with unwanted pregnancies? how would they respond? if you are a woman, imagine yourself pregnant in a country where you cannot have an abortion. what would you do? would you have made different decisions, either before getting pregnant or aftewards?
[/B]
I just reread your original post and thought I'd add these quotes as they may be more online with your original questions.

"What happens to the mind of a person, and the moral fabric of a nation, that accepts the aborting of the life of a baby without a pang of conscience? What kind of a person and what kind of a society will we have 20 years hence if life can be taken so casually? It is that question, the question of our attitude, our value system, and our mind-set with regard to the nature and worth of life itself that is the central question confronting mankind.
Failure to answer that question affirmatively may leave us with a hell right here on earth."
Rev. Jesse Jackson, U.S. civil rights activist, now in favor of legal abortion, in National Right to Life News, 1/1977
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Old 10-30-2005, 08:59 PM   #77
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Re: Re: Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

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Originally posted by BorderGirl
"What happens to the mind of a person, and the moral fabric of a nation, that accepts the aborting of the life of a baby without a pang of conscience? What kind of a person and what kind of a society will we have 20 years hence if life can be taken so casually? It is that question, the question of our attitude, our value system, and our mind-set with regard to the nature and worth of life itself that is the central question confronting mankind.
Failure to answer that question affirmatively may leave us with a hell right here on earth."
Rev. Jesse Jackson, U.S. civil rights activist, now in favor of legal abortion, in National Right to Life News, 1/1977

my response, both to you and to the rev, is that i couldn't disagree more with how the two of you have framed the situation. i don't think any woman anywhere views an abortion as akin to getting a wart removed.
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Old 10-30-2005, 09:52 PM   #78
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Re: Re: Re: Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



my response, both to you and to the rev, is that i couldn't disagree more with how the two of you have framed the situation. i don't think any woman anywhere views an abortion as akin to getting a wart removed.
Wow.
After all that's been discussed this is what you walk away with?
That you believe I or any person who is anti-abortion think that women who have had abortions haven't given it much thought? Pleeease.
In fact there is so much thought that goes with the decision to have an abortion that it haunts you the rest of your life.

"We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life—the unborn—without diminishing the value of all human life."
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:03 PM   #79
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Originally posted by financeguy
Ah I see. I guess those of us who would somehow seek to protect the unborn had better get back in our boxes, admit we're either under-educated trogolytes or pleasure-hating Bible bashers and just give the floor over to the far-thinking enlightened liberals.

No offense Yolland, it's precisely the kinds of attitudes evident in your post that allow the right wing to turn the debate into 'the librul elite are out to get us' kind of crap that we are so accustomed to hearing from the right wing.

And I'm an agnostic that doesn't agree with legalised abortion on demand. Sorry if I don't fit into the preconceptions.


You misunderstood my post big-time if you took it as a blanket characterization of the entire spectrum of EITHER pro-life or anti-gay-marriage thinking. I was specifically commenting on a gut-level emotional link between the two that is apparent, indeed explicitly stated, in some (to use your term) "pleasure-hating Bible basher" moral rhetoric. Hence my use of the phrase, "often underlies opposition to both"--i.e., among people who are opposed to both, this line of thinking is often manifest. Perhaps the link is not a familiar one on your side of the pond.

Your own presumptuouness aside, the nasty belitting tone was both unwarranted and unnecessary. My previous posts in the thread ought to make it perfectly clear that I don't consider this debate to be between "far-thinking enlightened" people on the one hand, and "under-educated troglodytes" on the other.
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:22 PM   #80
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
That you believe I or any person who is anti-abortion think that women who have had abortions haven't given it much thought? Pleeease.
In fact there is so much thought that goes with the decision to have an abortion that it haunts you the rest of your life.
So do you or don't you agree with Jackson's "without a pang of conscience" characterization? If you don't, then perhaps you should explain why you chose to quote it.

Personally, I've known too many responsible and self-aware women who weren't haunted for the rest of their lives by having had abortions to accept that consequence as universal. A few of them were made very uncomfortable by the secrecy they'd had to maintain due to fear of public exposure and humiliation (a stigma which I realize women who resolve to have the baby often contend with, too)--but clearly, that particular trauma comes from an entirely different source.

~ Peace
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Old 10-30-2005, 11:27 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
My point is that abortion involves taking an innocent persons life.
Why should a child have to pay, with their life, for the sins?? mistakes??? or whatevehhh your view is, of their parents? Why should they have to die?
What are we all so afraid of?
You could answer the last question better than me. But I don't recognize it as my right, nor the state's, to decide what is and isn't acceptable to "fear" in these situations.

The previous questions return to the portrayal of carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term as a deserved "punishment" to be meted out by the state. I already explained in my first post in this thread why I think that approach would only undermine compassion, family, and reverence for the gift of creating life.

Like most religious Jews, I believe that while abortion kills a living being, it is not the moral equivalent of murder and should not be treated as such. (If you're interested, the basis in Jewish law for this is Exodus 21:22; the fact that only minor monetary penalty is suggested for an assault-induced miscarriage--the closest Torah comes to mentioning abortion--is taken to mean that killing a fetus is not murder in the eyes of the Torah.)

Of course this does not mean that I see the decision of whether or not to abort as having no moral significance. Clearly it does.
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:36 AM   #82
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

So do you or don't you agree with Jackson's "without a pang of conscience" characterization? If you don't, then perhaps you should explain why you chose to quote it.

Personally, I've known too many responsible and self-aware women who weren't haunted for the rest of their lives by having had abortions to accept that consequence as universal. A few of them were made very uncomfortable by the secrecy they'd had to maintain due to fear of public exposure and humiliation (a stigma which I realize women who resolve to have the baby often contend with, too)--but clearly, that particular trauma comes from an entirely different source.

~ Peace


yes, this was essentially my reaction to the same post.

thanks for articulating it so well (as usual).
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:49 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


Like most religious Jews, I believe that while abortion kills a living being, it is not the moral equivalent of murder and should not be treated as such.
"How is the person who considers abortion to be murder any different from the Pole who knew what was going to happen at Auschwitz? If the Pole was morally obligated to attempt to save lives, isn’t the person who opposes abortion under the same obligation?"
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:54 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


(If you're interested, the basis in Jewish law for this is Exodus 21:22; the fact that only minor monetary penalty is suggested for an assault-induced miscarriage--the closest Torah comes to mentioning abortion--is taken to mean that killing a fetus is not murder in the eyes of the Torah.)

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life."
Exodus 21:22
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:54 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl


"How is the person who considers abortion to be murder any different from the Pole who knew what was going to happen at Auschwitz? If the Pole was morally obligated to attempt to save lives, isn’t the person who opposes abortion under the same obligation?"


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Old 10-31-2005, 11:21 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Like most religious Jews, I believe that while abortion kills a living being, it is not the moral equivalent of murder and should not be treated as such. (If you're interested, the basis in Jewish law for this is Exodus 21:22; the fact that only minor monetary penalty is suggested for an assault-induced miscarriage--the closest Torah comes to mentioning abortion--is taken to mean that killing a fetus is not murder in the eyes of the Torah.)


You address two different legal standards - both recognized in the Torah. An assult-induced miscarriage is manslaughter - no premeditation to kill. Murder involves a premeditation to end a life. That would be closer to abortion.
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:32 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
You address two different legal standards - both recognized in the Torah. An assult-induced miscarriage is manslaughter - no premeditation to kill. Murder involves a premeditation to end a life. That would be closer to abortion.
Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life."
Exodus 21:22
Hi guys,

I really want to respond to both of these points, but I absolutely cannot take the time right now as I am up to my ears in grading midterms (it didn't help any that I wasted a lot of time in FYM and elsewhere last weekend when I should have been grading ). The second point is a translation issue (is that from the NIV?), the first is--well, I don't know what to call it, but that's not how the Talmudic commentaries frame the issue where fetal status is concerned. Anyway, I probably can't get back here for a couple days, but if you want, I would be glad to pick this back up when I return. If you think that is worthwhile, let me know; if not, just say nothing and I'll assume we've all moved on to whatever next topic.

Thanks for helping keep an intense discussion civil.

~Peace
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Old 11-01-2005, 03:25 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


The second point is a translation issue (is that from the NIV?),
I believe it is.

There is one passage in the Bible that seems to touch specifically on the issue of abortion. In Exodus 21:22-25 we read:

'If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.' (NIV).

The interesting point here is that it is only if the woman dies from her injuries that murder is deemed to have taken place. The premature birth (abortion) of the baby is not condemned by the maxim 'Do not murder' given a few moments earlier.
But one could argue that the phrase, 'she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury' means the baby survived.

"By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And, by abortion, the father is told that he does not have any responsibility for the child he has brought into the world......So abortion leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want."
Mother Teresa, National Prayer Breakfast (February 3, 1994)
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Old 11-01-2005, 03:34 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


Thanks for helping keep an intense discussion civil.

Ditto---thanks!

I thought this was cool: enjoy.

"It is right and proper that marks of honour should be paid to worth of any kind, if there be no special reason to the contrary, and we are obliged to honour those who stand in any relation of superiority to ourselves. First and foremost, we must honour God by worshipping Him as our first beginning and last end, the infinite source of all that we have and are. We honour the angels and saints on account of the gifts and graces bestowed on them by God. We honour our parents, from whom we received our earthly being, and to whom we owe our bringing-up and preparation for the battle of life. Our rulers, spiritual and temporal, have a just claim on our honour by reason of the authority over us which they have received from God. We honour the aged for their presumed wisdom, virtue, and experience. We should always honour moral worth wherever we find it, and we may honour the highly talented, those who have been endowed with great beauty, strength, and dexterity, the well-born, and even the rich and powerful for riches and power may, and should, be made the instruments of virtue and well-being."
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:17 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


That's how they get their followers to do whatever they say and desire.
Melon
sounds more like an evil cult you found?
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