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Old 10-30-2005, 12:04 PM   #61
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Originally posted by melon

Funny you say that, considering that supply-side economics is nothing but "social Darwinism."

Melon
I think that social darwinism is more of a pseudoscientific rationale for the existence of poverty and a social system established to keep people at their station than an economic theory.
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Old 10-30-2005, 03:56 PM   #62
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Not everyone has a conscience.
I'll rephrase that---
Not everyone is able to allow themselves to have a consience/feelings for whatever reasons, be it disconnection, abuse, lack of support, etc.
You have to "turn yourself off" to undergo an abortion, to face what you are doing, which is ending the life process of a human. 'Born' humans are just further along in that development.
And I don't think you have to be religious to acknowledge that.


this really bothers me.

i respect your passion, but unless you have actually walked in the shoes of a woman who has agonized over whether or not she can keep her pregnancy, you are in absolutley no position to judge and lable her decision-making process.

just how would you know, unless you have been one of those women?
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Old 10-30-2005, 05:26 PM   #63
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Originally posted by Irvine511




this really bothers me.

i respect your passion, but unless you have actually walked in the shoes of a woman who has agonized over whether or not she can keep her pregnancy, you are in absolutley no position to judge and lable her decision-making process.

just how would you know, unless you have been one of those women?
Just between you and me,
I went way beyond Agony, looked over the edge and then realized I was getting ready to jump and take my child with me.
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Old 10-30-2005, 05:58 PM   #64
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Just between you and me,
I went way beyond Agony, looked over the edge and then realized I was getting ready to jump and take my child with me.


i'm glad you think you made the right decision.

again, i respect your passion, but i don't think you can extrapolate to such judgements based upon your experience. your truth is not everyone's truth.
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Old 10-30-2005, 06:06 PM   #65
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your truth is not everyone's truth.
while I generally agree with you Irvine, if you thought a certain act was murder- and nothing less- would you honestly be content with letting other people go along with it. just because they personally didn't feel it was wrong? I honestly have no clue how I feel about abortion....as it is I kind of think first-trimesters are fine but it gets iffy after that. But I can completely understand why people who are against it tend to be so strongly against it.

In a purely broad social sense I think it would be a step backwards to overturn Roe V Wade, but morally it's not such an "easy" issue as I would (personally ) consider something like gay marriage to be...
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Old 10-30-2005, 06:13 PM   #66
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The one thing I wish more than anything in this world is that people would unbundle gay marriage and abortion.

I am personally ambiguous on the issue of abortion. I will never have to deal with that issue in my life, so I am generally not hard-pressed to make a decision one way or another. And frankly, I can see both moral and secular humanist reasons as to why abortion is wrong, just as much as I can see reasons as to keep it legal. I can see why people would object to it, if they honestly believe that a fetus is a human being that deserves protection from murder.

However, gay marriage is something that is completely harmless, despite the 19th century apocalyptic melodrama that religion spouts lately. It's legal in Canada and the sky hasn't fallen. Canada is just the same as it has always been...just that a certain percentage of the population is now allowed to get married. I, frankly, look forward to the day that gay marriage is legal and just as mundane as your average heterosexual marriage. There are many good and bad heterosexual marriages, but, frankly, it's a non-event that doesn't attract media attention and banal clerical snipes from the pulpit.

I think it is perfectly viable to be pro-gay marriage and anti-abortion, and, as such, I wish that the general public and politicians and the media would treat them as the separate issues as they are.

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Old 10-30-2005, 06:18 PM   #67
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I agree with you completely melon, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise by mentioning gay marriage. I was really making the same point. that they're two issues that are often clumped together as "moral" issues, but while gay marriage seems pretty obvious to me, abortion isn't quite as clear.
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Old 10-30-2005, 06:40 PM   #68
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i don't think you can extrapolate to such judgements based upon your experience. your truth is not everyone's truth.
I'm not fit to judge anyone. All I can do is speak from my 'truths' and hopefully with humility.

‘The truth will set you free but first it will make you miserable’.

The truth really does hurt, but when the truth is spoken in love rather than in judgement, there is amazing healing that can take place.

May each of us be able to say like Martin Luther King: ‘Free at last, free at last, Thank God Almighty, we are free at last.’
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"outside of society, they're waitin' for me. outside of society, that's where I want to be."
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Old 10-30-2005, 06:41 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
Just between you and me,
I went way beyond Agony, looked over the edge and then realized I was getting ready to jump and take my child with me.
Sounds like you made the right decision for you, and doubtless learned some things about moral responsibility you wouldn't have, had that decision been made for you by the state. Doesn't follow that you thus have cause to project your own decision process onto other women's, though.

If the right to decide which decisions are morally responsible ones is delegated to the state, then no one can meaningfully claim to have made the right choice in light of their own conscience and beliefs. There are some situations where this is an acceptable tradeoff: the criminalization of murder (as presently defined) is generally justified on the grounds that rapid social breakdown in the face of epidemic violence and wanton disregard for human rights would otherwise ensue--not on the grounds that every individual murderer's reasoning process can be shown to be morally flawed. That would be an unacceptably difficult criterion to apply on a case-by-case basis.

Perhaps you do, in fact, see the consequences of legalized abortion as being precisely analogous to those of legalized murder. Your own appeal to personal experience as justification for your position, however, suggests otherwise.

~ Peace
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Old 10-30-2005, 06:57 PM   #70
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Originally posted by melon
I think it is perfectly viable to be pro-gay marriage and anti-abortion, and, as such, I wish that the general public and politicians and the media would treat them as the separate issues as they are.
I agree, but think it important to note that a similar moral pseudorationale often underlies opposition to both. It has to do with the idea that those who would avail themselves of the (legalized) benefits are thus being handed a golden ticket to "hedonism," because surely their "lifestyles" do not support the kind of (not-always-welcome) self-sacrifice--to the needs of children, for example--that marriage and childbearing entail for "the rest of us." In short, a kind of subtle jealousy that belies their claims to a purely ethical position on the matter.
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Old 10-30-2005, 07:53 PM   #71
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while I generally agree with you Irvine, if you thought a certain act was murder- and nothing less- would you honestly be content with letting other people go along with it. just because they personally didn't feel it was wrong? I honestly have no clue how I feel about abortion....as it is I kind of think first-trimesters are fine but it gets iffy after that. But I can completely understand why people who are against it tend to be so strongly against it.

In a purely broad social sense I think it would be a step backwards to overturn Roe V Wade, but morally it's not such an "easy" issue as I would (personally ) consider something like gay marriage to be...


point taken, but i was more objecting less to the morality of abortion and to the post that implied that women must dehumanize themselves in order to make the decision to have an abortion.

the one thing i really wanted to do in this thread was to avoide the whole "abortion ... murder?" arguments.
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Old 10-30-2005, 08:00 PM   #72
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Originally posted by yolland

Sounds like you made the right decision for you, and doubtless learned some things about moral responsibility you wouldn't have, had that decision been made for you by the state. Doesn't follow that you thus have cause to project your own decision process onto other women's, though.

My point is that abortion involves taking an innocent persons life.
Why should a child have to pay, with their life, for the sins?? mistakes??? or whatevehhh your view is, of their parents? Why should they have to die?
What are we all so afraid of?
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Old 10-30-2005, 08:01 PM   #73
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I agree, but think it important to note that a similar moral pseudorationale often underlies opposition to both. It has to do with the idea that those who would avail themselves of the (legalized) benefits are thus being handed a golden ticket to "hedonism," because surely their "lifestyles" do not support the kind of (not-always-welcome) self-sacrifice--to the needs of children, for example--that marriage and childbearing entail for "the rest of us." In short, a kind of subtle jealousy that belies their claims to a purely ethical position on the matter.

Ah I see. I guess those of us who would somehow seek to protect the unborn had better get back in our boxes, admit we're either under-educated trogolytes or pleasure-hating Bible bashers and just give the floor over to the far-thinking enlightened liberals.

No offense Yolland, it's precisely the kinds of attitudes evident in your post that allow the right wing to turn the debate into 'the librul elite are out to get us' kind of crap that we are so accustomed to hearing from the right wing.

And I'm an agnostic that doesn't agree with legalised abortion on demand. Sorry if I don't fit into the preconceptions.
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Old 10-30-2005, 08:07 PM   #74
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The one thing I wish more than anything in this world is that people would unbundle gay marriage and abortion.

Melon
Yes too much ADD out there people.....
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Old 10-30-2005, 08:33 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The one thing I wish more than anything in this world is that people would unbundle gay marriage and abortion.

I think it is perfectly viable to be pro-gay marriage and anti-abortion, and, as such, I wish that the general public and politicians and the media would treat them as the separate issues as they are.
Could not agree more.
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