Miers, Roe, SCOTUS, and a world without abortion ...

[financeguy]

financeguy: This may be a dumb question, but is abortion legal in N Ireland? I mean, why make the plane trip...

The Wikipedia reference also deals with this:

"Northern Ireland
Abortion is not uniformly legal throughout the United Kingdom. It remains illegal in the Northern Ireland, except under certain limited exceptions. This is true because Stormont still had jurisdiction when the British Parliament reformed its laws in 1967. Abortions in Northern Ireland remain subject to the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861 and the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Act of 1945 (and possibly to the Bourne Ruling of 1938).

Efforts to legalise abortion in Northern Ireland have been frustrated by overwhelming opposition from both communities, from the Roman Catholic Church on the nationalist side to the Rev. Ian Paisley, the leader of the protestant Democratic Unionist Party, on the Unionist side. Even the cross-community Northern Ireland Women's Coalition has declined to support a change in the law on abortion in Northern Ireland. About 1,500 women a year travel from Northern Ireland to Great Britain for an abortion. Between 1967 and 2002 five women are known to have died from illegal abortions in Northern Ireland."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Ireland"

 

[VertigoGal]

Oh...what's the point of having part of it in the UK if you can't even cross the border for abortions?

 

[BorderGirl]

"What you thought was freedom was just greed".
- bono

We're already 'gone' if we don't acknowlege that abortion is the taking of innocent life.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good": vince in bono malum (Rom 12:21).

There is a profound truth underlying these words: in the moral and social sphere, evil takes on the countenance of selfishness and hatred, which is negativity; it can only be overcome by love, which has the positivity of generous and disinterested giving......

-Godspy dot com

 

[enggirl]

Aw jeez...
I've got to add my two cents:
It seems that some people are under the assumption that in a world in which Roe is overturned, birth control will suddenly be more available, so it will all "even out." OK, I will say that I do NOT have all of the evidence/statistics in front of me (so don't flame me for that, k?), but the chatter on and off for the last few years has brought to my attention, and the attention of similarly leaning female friends, the fundamentalist bent of the current administration and the powers that be.

The former head of the women's branch of (was it Health & Human Services?) quit b/c of the "morning-after" pill being caught up in beaurocratic baloney...and was replaced by a man who is a VETERINARIAN!

There has been news about certain pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control because it goes against their religion. (I suppose you're screwed if you live in a small town w/ one pharmacy and no car to get to the mega-store down the interstate).

There was even news months back about a certain group that was trying to link up with the government and pressing for a return to that happy-crappy 1950s model where the husband made a "living wage" and could support a family--and where the wife was encouraged to have as many kids as was humanly possible.

Sex ed in many schools is a joke--or completely absent.

Yeah, I know, it sounds nutty--like some crazy, ranting woman finding a conspiracy theory under each couch cushion. But I was conceived before Roe was around. In fact, I was SUPPOSED TO BE an abortion. Long story (and really sordid) but it DIDN'T TAKE (obviously). I can look at my mom and completely understand where she was coming from.

But we live in a country that has been edging further and further right over the past few years, and Roe is the tip of the iceberg...do you honestly think that with Roe gone, suddenly everyone will feel comfortable talking about sex and birth control with their kids? Yeah, right. Crotch shots and bad sex jokes in movies is one thing--and very prevalent... But REAL information about sex in an era of reburgeoning creationism and "Intelligent design" is a joke. It will be easy to chip away at reproductive freedom when the big "boogeyman" of Roe is killed. Why stop at Roe? It will be easy to paint birth control as the next small "terrorism."

 

[MissMoo]

In that vein enggirl I just watched a documentary about the sixties where a woman was talking about going to one of the first "women's" groups and how what came out of it was that the majority of the women had had abortions. It was a secret that they each held inside until this group where someone admitted it and then the rest felt able to tell about their experiences. Abortion has been around forever. Making it illegal will not change that.

 

[BorderGirl]

Aw jeez...
the fundamentalist bent of the current administration and the powers that be.

All labels aside, I think you can be a liberal atheist and still know that the act of abortion is inhumane. (no pun intended).

 

[BorderGirl]

In that vein enggirl I just watched a documentary about the sixties where a woman was talking about going to one of the first "women's" groups and how what came out of it was that the majority of the women had had abortions. It was a secret that they each held inside until this group where someone admitted it and then the rest felt able to tell about their experiences. Abortion has been around forever. Making it illegal will not change that.

Do you know how sad that is?... that the majority had had abortions?!
All I know is that abortion comes with grief and there are a lot of wounded, sad people walking around cause of this.
It hurts not only the women who killed their own children but damages the relationships they have later with their husbands and their children.

 

[XHendrix24]

Abortion has been around forever. Making it illegal will not change that.

Murder has also been around forever. Do you propose we make that legal as well? Since, of course, simply keeping it illegal can't stop it from happening.


Also, I find it somewhat sad that to some people the abortion issue is being viewed as "the tip of the iceburg" for Conservatives taking control. This issue is not about Republicans just wanting to ban abortion so they can turn the US into a Bible-thumping theocracy or the Democrats wanting to keep abortion just to keep their death-grip on the persecution of Christians in government and perpetuate their culture of death. It's about whether the extermination of fetuses (feti?) should be lawful or not. We should be working to improve the nation here, not to take down the opposing political party.

 

[enggirl]

Do you know how sad that is?... that the majority had had abortions?!
All I know is that abortion comes with grief and there are a lot of wounded, sad people walking around cause of this.
It hurts not only the women who killed their own children but damages the relationships they have later with their husbands and their children.

Unless you have personal experience, I would stop short of pretending to know what having an abortion and then going on with life is like if I was you. THAT is the whole idea behind women having the ability to make their OWN CHOICE. For most women it is a decision that is not made lightly. But not everyone goes through life grieving for what might have been. Life is full of unhappiness and misery. Our family members get sick, they die, people move away...sadness follows us. We make life-altering choices in our lives, and sometimes they are made for us (as when someone dies or is disabled in an accident, for example). This is just another one of them. But if a woman makes this decision, she makes it for serious reasons that we cannot understand completely because we do not see the world through her eyes. We have to trust that she has made this decision for herself after much thought. Who are we to make this decision FOR her? And many times, women make this decision, then do what they have to do, and then move on. Living a life of awareness and acceptance of the sad, the painful, is hard. Letting others live and make their own decisions, decisions that are right for them but maybe wrong for you, is harder still, but this is the path to maturity, acceptance, understanding, and wisdom.

 

[enggirl]

Also, I find it somewhat sad that to some people the abortion issue is being viewed as "the tip of the iceburg" for Conservatives taking control. This issue is not about Republicans just wanting to ban abortion so they can turn the US into a Bible-thumping theocracy or the Democrats wanting to keep abortion just to keep their death-grip on the persecution of Christians in government and perpetuate their culture of death. It's about whether the extermination of fetuses (feti?) should be lawful or not. We should be working to improve the nation here, not to take down the opposing political party.

I find it interestng that you seem to claim to stand on the side of outlawing abortions in order to improve the nation/world and say that it should not be about taking down a political party...yet your own descriptions of Republicans and Democrats illustrates just that. You use the word "exterminations" and say that the Democrats want to "perpetuate their culture of death" while all Republicans are "bible-thumping." I am not sure if your descriptions of the two parties is done tongue-in-cheek or not...if it is, my apologies for misunderstanding. If it is not, I honestly don't think I want to get into it because I see it turning into an ugly, merry-go-round of an argument...

 

[BorderGirl]

Unless you have personal experience, I would stop short of pretending to know what having an abortion and then going on with life is like if I was you.....
Letting others live and make their own decisions, decisions that are right for them but maybe wrong for you, is harder still, but this is the path to maturity, acceptance, understanding, and wisdom.

Abortion's aftermath is largely ignored by the general public. Groups organized to protect the availability of abortion claim that abortion is no different from any surgical procedure and that pro-life groups are fabricating the existence of post-abortion suffering. Consequently, many women think that their grief reactions are somehow abnormal and believe that there is nowhere to turn for help.

Many women who have walked a path of grief and hopelessness after abortion, usually alone, eventually begin to understand that they have a deep spiritual wound. But sadly, they also are likely to believe that they have committed 'the unforgivable sin' and fear God's anger.

Women who have had an abortion often have many questions, the answers to which are indispensable to beginning the healing journey. Can God ever forgive me? Can my child? Can I ever forgive myself? Will the Church let me stay when I confess this sin? Will this horrible pain ever go away? Is healing possible?

The answer to all these questions is, of course, YES!

 

[enggirl]

Border:

It sounds like we are, in a way, on the same side of this argument--though I am an athiest and pro-choice (gee, was it obvious?). SOME women will go through a time of "soul-searching" after an abortion, AND, of course, before one. And I do hope that those women who are religious do seek help and can find it within themselves to accept that their decision was the best one they could make at the time...if a church turns someone away for making this decision, then obviously that church is a) not right for that woman, and b) not following its own "rules" regarding acceptance and love. However, not all women worry about god and a future punishment for any "sins." I hope that those who do find answers. But those who are not should not be forced into a time of questioning and introspection based on any religious rules/outlook/what-have-you. Yes, people can be pro-life and not religious. AND women can be pro-choice in general but pro-life when it comes to their OWN lives/decisions. I think my point is that it is not all black & white--nothing ever is. And that pushing any doctrine--be it a pro-life, pro-choice, pro-religion, etc.--on anyone is not the way to go about understanding WHY people make these decisions and how to change the world so that women do not find themselves pushed into a corner with no way out in ANY direction.

geez...sorry i'm babbling! It's just not a sinle, cut-and-dried topic!

 

[XHendrix24]

I am not sure if your descriptions of the two parties is done tongue-in-cheek or not..

They are. No worries.

 

[nathan1977]

Two quick questions:

i am interested to know how people think of just how making abortion illegal would impact them personally.

Is this the reason laws are made? The primary function of the law seems to be to protect society at large from the actions of its individuals. So it seems that, while discussing the personal impact of a particular law is valid, it doesn't seem to me that should be the only justification for legislation. Do I need to have been personally impacted by theft to say that stealing is wrong? After all, millions of people not personally affected by racism (i.e., white people) marched in the 1960s on behalf of those who were.

I prefer arguments from secular morality to religious dogma.

Which secular morality would you like to argue from? It seems that the shifting sands of secular morality have no basis beyond what we deem appropriate to the time. Right and wrong therefore have no real meaning beyond what we ascribe to them. Some would argue this is a good thing, but every surviving Western democracy is based in some worldview that drives its core values. If not properly defined, the line between democracy and fascism can be erased very quickly.

 

[Irvine511]

Is this the reason laws are made? The primary function of the law seems to be to protect society at large from the actions of its individuals. So it seems that, while discussing the personal impact of a particular law is valid, it doesn't seem to me that should be the only justification for legislation. Do I need to have been personally impacted by theft to say that stealing is wrong? After all, millions of people not personally affected by racism (i.e., white people) marched in the 1960s on behalf of those who were.

i was hoping for a personal reaction, not a legal one, and thus avoid the "abortion: right or wrong?" debate that this thread has already deteriorated into.

i'm already offended that someone has already used the words "killing a child" when that's precisely the type of polemics that i was trying to avoid. no, that's not calling a spade a spade; anyone who knows anything about the issue, whether for or against abortions legality, knows that it's extremely complex and filled with millions of unforseen scenarios.

also, i guarantee you that there are people on this board who have had abortions. saying that they have killed their child is deeply offensive. the least someone so adamantly for making abortion illegal can do is to offer sympathy and understanding for someone who has been faced with such an awful choice.

as everyone knows, abortion does not affect me and my personhood in the slightest. i can't get pregnant, and i'm really not in danger of getting anyone pregnant. however, i think it's healthy -- especially with an issue so emotinoally charge as abortion, something that takes place literally inside the body of a woman -- to view this in emotional terms.

i am not looking for a right answer, just looking for some imaginative, thoughtful, and hopefully empathetic responses.

 

[financeguy]

Which secular morality would you like to argue from? It seems that the shifting sands of secular morality have no basis beyond what we deem appropriate to the time.

Shucks I dunno. I'm not really an intellectual

But I would counter that religious dogma shifts also.

 

[financeguy]

also, i guarantee you that there are people on this board who have had abortions. saying that they have killed their child is deeply offensive. the least someone so adamantly for making abortion illegal can do is to offer sympathy and understanding for someone who has been faced with such an awful choice.

Statistically it's a near certainty. I agree, people should be careful in the language they use.

 

[nathan1977]

i am not looking for a right answer, just looking for some imaginative, thoughtful, and hopefully empathetic responses.

Irvine, I always admire your empathetic and human approach to these questions. (At least until it gets heated -- then people start ducking.)

 

[nathan1977]

Shucks I dunno. I'm not really an intellectual

But I would counter that religious dogma shifts also.

Absolutely. But at least there's something concrete to hang the dogma on, as opposed to veering towards something that runs the risk of changing with the wind.

 

[Irvine511]

Absolutely. But at least there's something concrete to hang the dogma on, as opposed to veering towards something that runs the risk of changing with the wind.

could secular humanism and a belief in the human thought process, i.e. the ability of all societies to work out their own set of ethics, perhaps create as much of a "core" or "center" as traditional notions of religion?

 

[nbcrusader]

could secular humanism and a belief in the human thought process, i.e. the ability of all societies to work out their own set of ethics, perhaps create as much of a "core" or "center" as traditional notions of religion?

Has it so far in human history?

 

[Irvine511]

Has it so far in human history?

most western democracies are founded by secular documents that while they might acknoweldge a belief in a creator, the empahsis is clearly humanist.

also, is human history something we should be proud of?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Abortion's aftermath is largely ignored by the general public. Groups organized to protect the availability of abortion claim that abortion is no different from any surgical procedure and that pro-life groups are fabricating the existence of post-abortion suffering. Consequently, many women think that their grief reactions are somehow abnormal and believe that there is nowhere to turn for help.

On this subject, a report has just been published which finds no evidence for the claim that women who have had an abortion are more likely to suffer from mental health problems.

Researchers can find "no credible evidence" to support the idea that termination poses a threat to a woman's mental health. Indeed, women who do not have an abortion are more likely to have had less education and income and come from larger families, all risk factors for depression.

Full article can be found here

 

[foray]

http://harrietmiers.blogspot.com/

 

[BorderGirl]

Has it so far in human history?

Thank you.

 

[BorderGirl]

On this subject, a report has just been published which finds no evidence for the claim that women who have had an abortion are more likely to suffer from mental health problems.



Full article can be found here

Not everyone has a conscience.
I'll rephrase that---
Not everyone is able to allow themselves to have a consience/feelings for whatever reasons, be it disconnection, abuse, lack of support, etc.
You have to "turn yourself off" to undergo an abortion, to face what you are doing, which is ending the life process of a human. 'Born' humans are just further along in that development.
And I don't think you have to be religious to acknowledge that.

 

[melon]

Absolutely. But at least there's something concrete to hang the dogma on, as opposed to veering towards something that runs the risk of changing with the wind.

Religion certainly changes with the wind too. It's all a matter as to what to selectively enforce in the Bible. In the 1920s, it was "greed morality"--that is, "I'm rich, because God loves me, and you're poor, because you're an evil sinner." In the Great Depression, it was social activism, since "greed morality" no longer applied to an entire nation in poverty. Canadian socialized medicine came from the ideas of a Baptist minister. Today's "Baptist ministers" are now apt to declare such institutions as "evil."

Nowadays, it's a combination of "greed morality" and good old fashioned 19th century apocalypticism. That is, "the world is going to shit and we're all going to die."

"Secular humanism" as a philosophy is fairly unchanging, actually. Most people just have a scant idea of what philosophy is anyway, so a lot of people just inject their whims and prejudices into half-heartedly trying to define it. Such cultural laziness.

Melon

 

[melon]

Has it so far in human history?

You're living in a nation founded on that philosophy. Otherwise, the idea of "religious freedom" wouldn't remotely be in our collective vocabulary. The Bible certainly doesn't encourage tolerance for other religious beliefs, that's for sure.

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that the seeds of social darwinism, a social movement that was not connected to religion demonstrates that the abuse is not isolated to religion.

I think that secular humanism be broken down furthur: rationalism, empiricism, reductionism, atheism.

 

[melon]

I think that the seeds of social darwinism, a social movement that was not connected to religion demonstrates that the abuse is not isolated to religion.

Funny you say that, considering that supply-side economics is nothing but "social Darwinism."

Melon