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Old 10-20-2005, 06:05 AM   #16
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For those who've read the book:

What do you think of the thesis in Freakonomics (the book's website is www.freakonomics.com but I don't think the pertinent thesis is available online) about the legalization of abortion leading the drop in crime in the 90s?

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Old 10-20-2005, 09:04 AM   #17
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:24 AM   #18
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If they made it illegal here (which I don't think they'd dare) I'd take part in a protest and hope that the people who were responsible never found themselves in a situation where they might regret their decision.
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:11 AM   #19
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great post, Yolland.
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Old 10-20-2005, 10:03 PM   #20
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^ Thanks.

I'm a little surprised by the apparent lack of interest in this thread. There shouldn't be anything inherently inflammatory about imagining the experience of facing an unwanted pregnancy in a situation where abortions are unavailable.

I hope this is not because people are dismissing imagining this situation as irrelevant or "hey, not my damn problem"...?


Quote:
Originally posted by theblazer
If Roe v Wade was overturned, it would simply mean that the individual states would decide if it is legal/illegal within their borders. But, being liberals, I'm sure none of you are really ever interested in facts. Just throw some shit up against the wall, and whatever sticks is the truth for you.
Regarding the legal fate of abortion post-Roe...

There would be indeed be "decisions" made in some states, but only some. Many states, of course, still have unchallenged (pre-Roe) laws on the books banning abortion, and if Roe were overturned, they could and probably would simply go right back to enforcing them. They certainly would be under no obligation to undertake a post-Roe "decision."

Even in states where these bans had previously been challenged, no new court case would be necessary: as long as the ban had not been repealed, the state could simply move to vacate the court orders preventing enforcement. Similarly, other states have old *constraints* on abortion on the books--parental consent laws, trimester limitations, emergency contraception restrictions, etc.--and these, too, could and probably would be immediately re-enforced.

It should go without saying that "liberals" are not the only ones who have an interest in what level of government abortion is regulated at. It is hardly as if the pro-life movement has fought so long and so hard against Roe simply because they are passionate states' rights advocates who merely want the decision made by someone other than SCOTUS. Nor are they likely to rest on their laurels about what happens at the state level if Roe were overturned.

If anyone is interested in a state-by-state review of what laws are already on the books, the reproductive rights law "watchdog" Center for Reproductive Rights has a downloadable one at http://www/crlp.org/pub_bo_whatifroefell.html


~ Peace
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Old 10-20-2005, 10:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
and a world without abortion
Would actually be a very cool thing.

Wouldn't it?
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Old 10-21-2005, 09:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


Would actually be a very cool thing.

Wouldn't it?


i'd say "a world without the need for abortion" would be a very cool thing.
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Old 10-23-2005, 02:33 PM   #23
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A world without abortion might just open up the doors for God to feel welcome.
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Old 10-23-2005, 02:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
A world without abortion might just open up the doors for God to feel welcome.
Nah. Religious institutions are based on a culture of fear. We live in a world of unprecedented peace when compared to prior centuries, and they still act as if the world is going to hell.

And even if abortion was ended, it still would never be enough.

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Old 10-24-2005, 01:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Nah. Religious institutions are based on a culture of fear.
And even if abortion was ended, it still would never be enough.
Melon
I said "God", not religious institutions.

Churches help bring the Word of God to it's listeners.

Since laws are created by people, abortions will only stop when there is a change in our society, ie. people's hearts.
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Old 10-24-2005, 01:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
Since laws are created by people, abortions will only stop when there is a change in our society, ie. people's hearts.

I would argue that your concept of God is also largely created by people. Although I have reservations about legalised abortion on demand, I prefer arguments from secular morality to religious dogma.
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Old 10-24-2005, 01:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
I said "God", not religious institutions.

Churches help bring the Word of God to it's listeners.
But you experience "God" through the interpretation of religious institutions. And they will say that "God" is angry, no matter what. That's how they get their followers to do whatever they say and desire.

Quote:
Since laws are created by people, abortions will only stop when there is a change in our society, ie. people's hearts.
I agree. Abortion will only end when individuals decide that it is no longer necessary. Of course, "religious institutions" have done a great job of attaching shame and stigma to pre-marital pregnancy; and this extends into the macro-level culture here in America. Until we can change this vengeful streak in our culture, abortions will continue, whether legally or illegally.

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Old 10-24-2005, 02:02 PM   #28
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My thought is that the women who this would impact the most are those who don't have money to go elsewhere and have abortions. The women who don't have the money to have the children. But, will they give those children up for adoption if forced to have them? Will they abandon them in doorways? Will they go to "doctors" for herbs and unsanitary methods of abortion? Even if they have the children and attempt to raise them, how will that impact their lives? I would imagine it would make their lives harder.
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Old 10-24-2005, 02:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
[B]If I may pester you with a few questions then...

What exactly are the penalties? Do they apply only to the woman, or do they extend to anyone who helps her obtain an abortion? What's the moral logic behind making an exception for cases where the mother's life might be threatened? And what percentage of Irish women give their babies up for adoption?

Hi Yolland. I am posting an extract from a Wikipedia article on the subject, which appears accurate and hopefully will answer some of your questions:


" In 1983, the Republic of Ireland by referendum amended the Constitution of Ireland to add in what became generally known as the 'Pro Life Amendment', which asserted that the fetus/foetus had an explicit right to life equal to that of its mother, with the Irish state guaranteeing to 'vindicate' that right. In the referendum, the case for the amendment was argued by the main opposition party, the Roman Catholic Church, some Protestant church leaders and an pro-life lobby group called the Pro-Life Amendment Campaign (PLAC) (which had campaigned for the amendment, arguing that the Irish Courts could theoretically face their own Roe v. Wade court case) while the case against was put by a pro-choice lobby group called the Anti-Amendment Campaign, which included future President of Ireland, Mary Robinson. The arguments against the amendment were also put by the then Irish government, most mainstream protestant leaders and a minority of catholics. In the debate, no one actually advocated the legalisation of abortion.

While the 'Pro-Life Amendment' established the principle of the 'right to life of the unborn, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother' in Irish constitutional law, practical problems subsequently arose with its meaning. In 1992, a major controversy erupted over the issue of whether a suicidal minor who was a statutory rape victim, and who became pregnant, could leave Ireland for an abortion that is lawful in another country (Attorney General v. X, known as the 'X Case'). The Supreme Court interpreted the Pro-Life Amendment as giving a right to abortion in certain limited circumstances, in a judgment which came to be known as the 'X Case,' including when the mother's life was in danger.

Court injunctions issued in 1988 and 1990 under the 1983 amendment barred family planning groups and student groups from offering abortion counseling, information and aid in travelling to Britain to procure abortions. These injunctions grew increasingly unpopular, particularly after the 'X case.' Questions were also raised as to whether the bans on access to information violated provisions in the Maastricht Treaty. Two constitutional amendments were subsequently added in 1993 that guaranteed the 'right to travel' and the 'right to information' (a third amendment that would have defined when abortions could be considered legal was defeated). Due to questions about the constitutionality of the amendments, the changes did not come into force until 1995.

The issue of what form of constitutional prohibition on abortion Ireland should have (if any) has been revisited in a number of referenda, but no clear result or consensus has emerged, other than, whatever about the practicalities, in theory most Irish voters believe that a 'foetus' has a right to life equal to that of its mother, so excluding the option of choosing abortion, except in the limited grounds decided upon judicially in the 'X Case' judgment, which the Irish people in referenda have refused to narrow when offered that option.

It should be noted that, in theory, Abortion is legal in Ireland if there is a risk to the life of the mother. A provision exists in the Irish constitution to allow Dail Eireann to legislate on this, however no political party has risked it, and in the meantime, while it is legal in theory, the body that holds medical licences in Ireland considers it malpractice for any doctor to perform an abortion. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Ireland
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Old 10-24-2005, 04:50 PM   #30
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financeguy: This may be a dumb question, but is abortion legal in N Ireland? I mean, why make the plane trip...

Anyway, I agree with Irvine that the best possible situation would be a world with no need for abortions, but I'm not getting my hopes up. In the meantime, I guess it's best to heed the advice my dad so very wisely gave me last night: "Don't get pregnant."
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