Middle School Fashion Bullies

[financeguy]

While as a general principle I am strongly against brainwashing teenagers by forcing ideas into their heads (e.g., religion) and forcing them to wear uniforms, I can also see the merit of the arguments in favour of uniforms.

If we're going to go enforcing sartorial standards on kids, I think we should probably start by taking a look in the mirror.

The deterioration in sartorial standards amongst adults in recent years is absolutely disgraceful. If you look, for example, at movies from the 1950's or even look at photos from that era, and compare them to today, you will see what I am talking about.

There was a time when adults, particularly and especially the middle class and the upper class, dressed properly and appropriately, and personally I'm all for bringing it back.

I admit, I haven't always lived up to these high standards myself.

I'm thinking of making a New Year's Resolution never to be seen in public without wearing a suit, preferably tailormade. Tailormade suits are not necessarily expensive, by the way. I bought a very decent one recently in Malaysia for only €250 or so.

It's about time someone set some decent standards.

It's about time gracious living came back, and our vulgar common modern mass produced consumerism was set aside.

 

[BVS]

While as a general principle I am strongly against brainwashing teenagers by forcing ideas into their heads (e.g., religion) and forcing them to wear uniforms

There was a time when adults, particularly and especially the middle class and the upper class, dressed properly and appropriately, and personally I'm all for bringing it back.

Quite a contradiction...

You don't believe in brainwashing ideas or forcing ideas, but yet there's only one "proper" way to dress.

 

[anitram]

We are asked to conform to some extent every single day of our lives. As Lies stated, in school, you have a mandatory curriculum, mandatory tests and classes. Continues on into college. You enter the workplace and there is a certain standard set.

The idea that there is some inherent danger in high school uniforms just doesn't fly, because I've lived it and I don't see any evidence that my character was stifled during those years or negatively impacted me. Like I said, kids are still different, with different personalities and styles and means of expression, and that comes across no matter what you are dressed in. So we may as well look neat and take away the clothing wars and massive spending on inappropriate clothes.

 

[BVS]

Conformity to what? It's just an outfit..... Forcing everyone to take the EXACT same curriculum, write on the EXACT same paper topics, read all the same books, repeat word for word what the teacher is saying, rinse wash repeat....THAT is what I call conformity, not a plain sweater and pair of slacks.

Well I agree, although I would argue that although they may have the same subject to write on they can write on that subject anyway they'd like(hopefully) and there's really only one answer to 2 + 2...

I was just debating the subject in general that conformity is needed in HS, but I do agree that dress is a small part of it.

To some people it's not just an outfit. Being able to wear a ONE t-shirt, a band t-shirt, or skirt you made yourself speaks about who you are, some kids need that, some don't.

 

[financeguy]

Quite a contradiction...

You don't believe in brainwashing ideas or forcing ideas, but yet there's only one "proper" way to dress.

I knew that you would react to my post, and find some way of snidely misinterpreting it.

I did not say that there was only "proper way" to dress. I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

 

[dazzlingamy]

i think you're hearing conformity and you're having vietnam, fight the man flashbacks.

Of course its not going to stop kids getting teased at school, or some people being evil bitches/arseholes, but unfortunately thats LIFE. The fact of the matter is, a uniform gets rid of 'what brand are you wearing' at school at least, its provides a sense of comraderie, because everyone is wearing the same thing, a unification if you will - you always know who goes to what school when you're down the street and seeing another people in the same uniform, its like 'oh heeeey!'
it also cuts down on trying to find something to wear, which is a reason especially in high school when i used to walk up 15 mins before class and loved the fact i could slip on a school dress and head out the door
and also, like antitram said, it looks nicer, thens a sense of pride when you wear your uniform, of course there are the 5% who will buck the system, and thats life to still have arseholes no matter what

but the fact is im not talking about some mind control, drone, communistic society in the future, but school is a bit like that, you have to do what you're told, learn what you're given, there is one overlord on which your life at school hangs if you screw up etc but its just school, not life.

Yay for uniforms!

 

[financeguy]

We are asked to conform to some extent every single day of our lives. As Lies stated, in school, you have a mandatory curriculum, mandatory tests and classes. Continues on into college. You enter the workplace and there is a certain standard set.

The idea that there is some inherent danger in high school uniforms just doesn't fly, because I've lived it and I don't see any evidence that my character was stifled during those years or negatively impacted me. Like I said, kids are still different, with different personalities and styles and means of expression, and that comes across no matter what you are dressed in. So we may as well look neat and take away the clothing wars and massive spending on inappropriate clothes.

While I largely agree with the above, it does depend on the particular uniform. I have seen some reasonably elegant uniforms, and others that are not nice at all.

 

[anitram]

While I largely agree with the above, it does depend on the particular uniform. I have seen some reasonably elegant uniforms, and others that are not nice at all.

Yeah, that's true. I was lucky in that we had a really nice one (our colours were navy/charcoal), and we had a nice mix of clothes we could buy. They were modern, not overly stuffy, but just sort of perfect for what they were being used for.

 

[BVS]

I knew that you would react to my post, and find some way of snidely misinterpreting it.

I did not say that there was only "proper way" to dress. I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

I think you took it too personally. There was nothing snide about my post.

I just think it's an "oh the good ole days" way of thinking that;

There was a time when adults, particularly and especially the middle class and the upper class, dressed properly and appropriately, and personally I'm all for bringing it back.

Who is to say what's proper and appropriate?

 

[Angela Harlem]

I just think preaching conformity, especially at the high school level is dangerous. It reminds me of 'Brick in the Wall'; "we don't need you thought control".

Why would you preach conformity to the future of your country? We're sold this idea all throughout high school that you are the future, you're the next generation, dream, go out and change the world... how can you do that and preach conformity at the same time?

It's not about thought control. It's a visual leveller of students. Stripping dressing freedoms in students is not removing a sense of identity or stiffling the chance for one to develop. It's not creating a society of potential communists. It really is just a dress code. I think it's an interesting observation that can be made in here, too, that it is people from the countries without dress codes or uniforms who object mostly to the concept of them. It seems as though you (all) perceive a list of potential problems in the individuals and the society these kids become an active part of, which doesn't actually exist. Teaching to go forth and do great things, to stand out and be counted, doesn't contradict the concept of conformity as much as you'd think, either. Remember, a uniform is a superficial covering. It's put in place to be the all-essential leveller. "All students are equal and will not be seperated by social class or race". Underneath their clothes are individuals who are still taught to leave school and do their best. No one at my school could tell by my uniform that my family had no car, nor a telephone in the house until I was about 16. No one could pick on me because I usually only owned about 2 pairs of jeans and an assortment of t-shirts. Clothes were never my thing, and they aren't now, as I sit here in tracksuit pants typing away to you all. I never went through school thinking I had to conform based on what I wore. The uniforms just made us dress the same and allow us to concentrate on learning and exceeding in our particular skill areas.

 

[indra]

Self expression for kids tends to be "I'm expressing myself -- exactly like everyone else does!" So uniforms should be perfect for the little darlings.

I wore uniforms in high school and I liked them -- they didn't cost a lot, were decent looking (the colours were dark blue skirts or long pants and a white button up shirt -- polos were ok -- and dark blue or white sweaters and socks), and you didn't have to think about what to wear. There were some very rich kids in school and some very poor ones (I was on the latter end -- I worked my way through high school), but no one's outfits really stood out as either much better or much worse than anyone else's. As far as conformity, we were -- and still are -- a more diverse group than the kids who went to the local public school and didn't have uniforms.

I do have to say I'm very happy I can wear whatever the hell I want now.

 

[Angela Harlem]

To some people it's not just an outfit. Being able to wear a ONE t-shirt, a band t-shirt, or skirt you made yourself speaks about who you are, some kids need that, some don't.

Here's where it's worth wondering if it's 'not just an outfit' to those who grow up with the option of one. I can't ever recall anyone really getting the shits at our compulsory uniforms. We'd all complain occasionally because it was too hot, or worse, too cold and black stockings and a grey skirt with a navy blazer just wouldn't stop you from freezing your arse off on your school built on the side of a cliff in Katoomba.... But I digress! No, I'm not bitter, really! lol. I got my hair permed in year 7 (aged 12), then spent the next 18 years (up to now) dyeing it, cutting it, changing it, always doing something to it. I experimented with different art mediums, and painting styles. A friend and I got our school to allow glass art in art, and also managed to get it banned (but that is another story for another day ), we had the character ankle socks trend, the hair scrunchie trend, the different ways of wearing a white shirt. There was no stiffling of anyone's styles. We'd still manage having our own sense of identity to burst through and shake it up.

 

[BVS]

It's not about thought control. It's a visual leveller of students. Stripping dressing freedoms in students is not removing a sense of identity or stiffling the chance for one to develop. It's not creating a society of potential communists. It really is just a dress code. I think it's an interesting observation that can be made in here, too, that it is people from the countries without dress codes or uniforms who object mostly to the concept of them. It seems as though you (all) perceive a list of potential problems in the individuals and the society these kids become an active part of, which doesn't actually exist. Teaching to go forth and do great things, to stand out and be counted, doesn't contradict the concept of conformity as much as you'd think, either. Remember, a uniform is a superficial covering. It's put in place to be the all-essential leveller. "All students are equal and will not be seperated by social class or race". Underneath their clothes are individuals who are still taught to leave school and do their best. No one at my school could tell by my uniform that my family had no car, nor a telephone in the house until I was about 16. No one could pick on me because I usually only owned about 2 pairs of jeans and an assortment of t-shirts. Clothes were never my thing, and they aren't now, as I sit here in tracksuit pants typing away to you all. I never went through school thinking I had to conform based on what I wore. The uniforms just made us dress the same and allow us to concentrate on learning and exceeding in our particular skill areas.

No, I understand that. That paticular post was about the

conformity - thats what you need at high school!

in general, not specific to the uniform debate.

I completely understand the 'leveling' argument. I do. I just think it CAN be a slippery slope, not that it is, but it can be.

And I'm just a big proponent of self expression and believe it's very important and I knew a lot of kids in high school that may have not had "loud voices" but found a way to express themselves with their appearance...

I would definatley be for some type of compromise one that would eliminate the concept of brand names but still allowed self expression. Maybe the kids were allowed to decorate their sweaters with patches, button, etc... allowed to be creative with their uniform.

 

[indra]

A friend and I got our school to allow glass art in art, and also managed to get it banned (but that is another story for another day )

I wanna hear about that!

My class managed to get monitored study halls reinstated for freshman -- but by that time we were sophmores so our free periods were unmonitored. We also got in trouble for drinking a bunch of the priest's booze when we were supposed to be decorating the school.

 

[financeguy]

We also got in trouble for drinking a bunch of the priest's booze when we were supposed to be decorating the school.

It's interesting that Catholics sometimes seem to hold booze, smoking, gambling, etc, as relatively minor vices, and sexual vices as major ones, whereas Protestants (leaving aside Christian Fundamentalist Protestants, who view all forms of enjoyment as sinful, apparently) tend to take the opposite approach, being relatively judgemental of indulgence in booze and gambling but relatively tolerant regarding sexuality. But that's probably for a different debate.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Of course its not going to stop kids getting teased at school, or some people being evil bitches/arseholes, but unfortunately thats LIFE. The fact of the matter is, a uniform gets rid of 'what brand are you wearing' at school at least

Yeah. At school. But what happens outside of school? Again, suppose you're at the mall with your friends and some kid starts harassing you about your clothing. What are you gonna do then? You're gonna have to deal with it eventually, we can't just say, "Oh, uniforms!" and let that be the end of it. And like I said, instead of making everyone wear uniforms, let's teach kids to stop being so concerned with what brand of clothing someone's wearing. Why can't we do that instead?

The uniforms just made us dress the same and allow us to concentrate on learning and exceeding in our particular skill areas.

I never had to wear a uniform at any of the schools I went to, and I and other kids were still able to concentrate on our learning. The kids that don't concentrate aren't suddenly going to start doing so once they've got a uniform on.

I dunno, I just find it really strange that the exact same generation that asked to be able to allow guys to wear their hair long or girls to wear pants or whatever else is now sitting here supporting school uniforms. Why was it okay for you guys to dress however you wanted when you were in school, but it isn't for us?

Angela

 

[dazzlingamy]

im 25 - in IN the generation... i'm not some hippy 45 yr old or something


why is this suddenly encrouching on people's liberties - its a uniform, its school, it doesn't last forever.

frankly, i never cared what anyone thought, maybe we should bring in some more psychological lessons of not caring what people think of you?

but uniforms, are pretty cool!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

im 25 - in IN the generation... i'm not some hippy 45 yr old or something

Oh, I wasn't referring to you specifically. It was a general question to anyone in this thread who was in school in the 60s and 70s. I should've clarified that better, I'm sorry .

I just don't see how uniforms will solve anything. They don't automatically help you to concentrate better in school, they don't stop the teasing-they're essentially a band-aid for bigger problems that we should be focusing on. That's my problem with them.

Angela

 

[indra]

some hippy 45 yr old or something

Hey! I resemble that remark!

As for what to do when kids at the mall make fun of what you are wearing -- don't hang out at malls. They suck your soul right out. Ghastly places.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

. I dunno, malls don't really bother me.

And malls are an example, but there's lots of teen hangouts where there's always a chance kids will go after somebody for some reason or another. So what's the solution there?

Angela

 

[Angela Harlem]

Oh, I wasn't referring to you specifically. It was a general question to anyone in this thread who was in school in the 60s and 70s. I should've clarified that better, I'm sorry .

I just don't see how uniforms will solve anything. They don't automatically help you to concentrate better in school, they don't stop the teasing-they're essentially a band-aid for bigger problems that we should be focusing on. That's my problem with them.

Angela

I never said they will automatically help you concentrate better. I don't know how that was gleamed from my posts, as they were responding to the suggestion that uniforms may strip you of an ability to develop your sense of self - which is bullshit, as I and others have explained over and over. It's kinda getting almost offensive, the implication that there is something flawed with the uniform system - as someone who survived such apparently trying times. Millions in my country have, and many millions more in other places all around the world are doing just fine. Everyone freaks right out at the thought of a stupid uniform. I don't get it. No one really batts an eye in the places they're enforced.


And indra, we had these grand ideas for some works we wanted to do in year 11 (the build up for the final year, so we were 16-17 year olds), and of course thought glass was a brilliant notion. Screw guache and charcoal! So we approached the teacher who said we needed permission from the principal, so we went demurely off to plead our case and ensure them we'd be responsible students, blah blah, and when they thought it was a great idea too, we brought in the glass and proceeded to break it up into hundreds of pieces for the mosaic stuff we were working on. Yeah, we forgot to mention it would be shards of glass, and even broke glass, and the school forgot to ask. Too dangerous! Pffft!

 

[catehope]

Here's where it's worth wondering if it's 'not just an outfit' to those who grow up with the option of one. I can't ever recall anyone really getting the shits at our compulsory uniforms. We'd all complain occasionally because it was too hot, or worse, too cold and black stockings and a grey skirt with a navy blazer just wouldn't stop you from freezing your arse off on your school built on the side of a cliff in Katoomba.... But I digress! No, I'm not bitter, really! lol. I got my hair permed in year 7 (aged 12), then spent the next 18 years (up to now) dyeing it, cutting it, changing it, always doing something to it. I experimented with different art mediums, and painting styles. A friend and I got our school to allow glass art in art, and also managed to get it banned (but that is another story for another day ), we had the character ankle socks trend, the hair scrunchie trend, the different ways of wearing a white shirt. There was no stiffling of anyone's styles. We'd still manage having our own sense of identity to burst through and shake it up.

Sort of a tanget here...I live that general area, so I sympathise with the weather issue. Went to Blaxland High, just randomly.

Anyway, speaking as a "young woman" only three years out of highschool, who was bullied mercilessly by "friends" I can say that with or without uniforms, it's the individual- if someone is a peice of shit excuse for a human being, that's who they are. These particular girls felt some sort of odd self entitlement.

Regardless of what I wore or how I acted those girls would rip me apart (I was called ugly, told I looked like a man, told I walked funny and had a funny accent/talked funny). I tried (in retrospect it was highly ridiculous) to be one of them, but I also couldn't seem for some reason quash that little part of me that wanted to be who I felt (at the time) I truly was-it probably made it worse.

The clothes is just an easy way to make someone miserable. If it wasn't that, it'd be something else.

I also aplogise if this has been mentioned already, it's a bit of a cyclical discussion in my opinion.

 

[Greenlight]

I'm all for freedom of expression in general but especially now as a parent, I thank my lucky stars for school uniforms. No timewasting or arguments in the morning deciding what to wear and since uniforms now are generally much cheaper than other clothes my purse is definitely fuller as a result.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and wore school uniform and yes most children then and now, given a choice, would probably say they would prefer to wear ordinary clothes rather than uniform. I hated having to wear a tie and blazer and crimpolene skirt but I survived and am none the worse psychologically, (I hope ). Most children given a choice would also say they would prefer not to attend school in the first place -should we give them more freedom of expression by giving them the chance to opt out?

Uniforms nowadays are much more modern anyway -normally white polo shirt, sweatshirt in the school colours and trousers and in sixth forms (for 16-18 year olds) when school isn't compulsory, neither in most cases is uniform. I think many kids whilst they wouldn't always admit it, have a grudging pride in their uniform, evident for instance when they attend events with other schools. Schools in the UK aren't obliged to have a uniform policy but since the vast majority (around 95%) do, they can't all be wrong!

 

[Angela Harlem]

Sort of a tanget here...I live that general area, so I sympathise with the weather issue. Went to Blaxland High, just randomly.

Awesome! I did cross country at your school once, for zone I live in Emu now, after having moved from Lawson down to Glenmore Park and now back across the river once more
I was picked on a lot at school, but only because I was shy and had trouble being sociable. I'm so glad school is over and done with.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

and i think you're awesome

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yes uniforms might help in school as a short term solution to this bullying, but what about the larger question of the values these kids are learning? Are uniforms going to stop them from worshiping designer names and just things in general and somehow connecting that to their self esteem and self worth? Because there are adults who have the same values. Did they grow up with those values or did they acquire them when they became adults?

I saw plenty of preteen girls with Coach bags before I ever had one-and I had one because I thought it was pretty and it was given to me as a gift. Sure it feels good to have such a nice designer bag but most of my life I've lived with inexpensive ones and I never connected my self worth to that. Sure I had similar pressures in school about clothes and bags but it was never to the extent described in the article. I grew up in a middle/upper middle class town but my parents never had the money for that sort of thing. I just wonder how many parents don't but are going into debt for their kids for the reasons described in that article. What are the effects on the kids? And the parents?

 

[dazzlingamy]

I don't know if its a huge thing. Instead on focussing on 'what to do with parents going bankrupt etc' how about saying 'no i can't afford a $2000 handbag and food for the table, grow up and see that'
Some people are always going to be obsessed with having things bigger and better and more expensive then everyone else. There are always people not happy with how they look, dress, etc and will emulate others just to fit in, in teenage years and adulthood.

The thing that needs to be addressed is self confidence, and understanding. Teach young people that high school is not life, that most of the popular girls with have babies young or be married to a man who cheats, and the football stars muscle will run to fat and he'll own some car yard or car wash and be a loser.

We place so much on social standing and popularity, without even thinking about the long run. Perhaps teaching this, somehow trying to get it into people's head that being yourself will make you immeasurably happier then trying to be someone else, regardless of what fuckwit trys to run you down.

but, i still think uniforms are good for high schools.

 

[beegee]

Teach young people that high school is not life, that most of the popular girls with have babies young or be married to a man who cheats, and the football stars muscle will run to fat and he'll own some car yard or car wash and be a loser.

Why in the world would I ever want to "teach" such a thing to my high school age daughter? She wears Hollister from head to toe and was just voted Freshman Homecoming Princess. Being popular doesn't always make someone a bad person.

 

[anitram]

was just voted Freshman Homecoming Princess

Out of curiosity, because we don't have anything like that where I went to school, what does that entail, exactly? I've always wondered!

 

[beegee]

Out of curiosity, because we don't have anything like that where I went to school, what does that entail, exactly? I've always wondered!

The senior class votes two students to be the homecoming king and queen. The freshman class votes one of their students to be the queen's attendant, or princess.

They don't really have any particular duties, it's just all part of the homecoming festivities. There was a big footbal game where the "royalty" rode on the backs of cars in a parade during halftime and a dance the next night. If you want to see what it all looks like, there are some pictures in my journal.