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Old 09-20-2004, 01:12 PM   #31
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Class warfare isn't necessary.
A quote from the wealthy!
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:20 PM   #32
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The government could help by implementing rules that forced businesses to run differently, but you never hear them say that because BOTH parties are funded by them and they are going to kiss their asses. As long as we are stuck with the 2 party system nothing is going to change.
Actually, one of Barack Obama's key campaign messages/goals (he is running for U.S. Senate for Illinois) is stopping tax credits/cuts for businesses that send jobs overseas. His campaign funding is not being hurt one bit by this message.

It is a simple step (not going to stop the division in class), but certainly one that can help foster job growth, and HOPEFULLY create a positive net gain in jobs.

Which, by the way, is something Bush hasn't seen in his four years. Are we going to blame that on former president's too?
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:21 PM   #33
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Kerry is not going to change this
but as far as I can tell the recent administration favourite action is tax cuts (no wonder when you have polls rating how the president is doing every week for 4 years)

tax cuts definitely have their merrit up to some point
until some people have to live on such a piss poor income that having to pay 0.7% less on taxes won't help them anymore

here in the netherlands the current government is getting criticised over the way it's trying to change the way we think about our economy and social services structure because it's just outdated
this does not make them popular with their voters and they will probably pay for that in a couple of years time

it's about time the US got an administration who is willing to recognise that the problem can't be solved with tax cuts because of the way the economy has changed (outsourcing etc)
unpopular (esp unpopular with some of the companies who pour money into the campaign funds) methods will have to be taken to help those americans who will never get the jobs back that went to low wages countries no matter how well the economy might do

I think my point is that no matter who will be the president he should realise that 'recent' economic changes and changes in age demographics (the avarage age will just keep growing & growing) calls for a different government approach on economics and social security
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:24 PM   #34
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
And what is Kerry going to do to stop it? NOTHING just like everyone else.
kerry purports to be much more protectionist in his approach to free trade. if you believe this campaign 'promise', and i suspect you won't, a large part of this would involve ceasing the bidding down of labor costs to foreign nations hosting cheaper labor.

in contrast, bush, based on republican 'ideology' and track record, would approach free trade with a more open platform.

so, based on the verity of kerry's campaign statement, he does a course of action.
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:46 PM   #35
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And what is Kerry going to do to stop it? NOTHING just like everyone else. It's not a political thing, it's social and business trends. It's been going sour for over 25 years now, regardless of who's in office (though the 80's were more profitable times in many ways)

I don't disagree this is happening, I think it's worse than most of you believe. What I'm saying is acting like Kerry is going to wave a magic wand and make it go away is unrealistic. Regardless of who is elected in November, we working class dogs are fucked.
I agree that Kerry isn't going to be able to wave a magic wand and make it go away. He can, however, work to overturn the tax cut trend. Bush is setting this tax cut trend up and plans on continuing with it. It isn't working. I don't want a federal tax cut when my state budget is in crisis and my local town budget is in crisis. How can this make sense? I'm supposed to smile with my extra check as I watch my son's school schedule add on study halls in place of the extra's? I'm supposed to smile when I pay 3 times as much to enroll him in baseball, etc. than I used to? I'm supposed to be happy that I have the extra money so I can pay $250 of it back to my town for my son to get a bus ride? Next year it will be $500 when I have to pay for my daughter too. The same money is spent either way in the end for me. I'd rather have it come out of my pay check and budget my net pay accordingly than to continually get hit with large fees. Poorer people get LESS and richer people get MORE. These tax cuts are bogus.

If the Republican party continues to lead our country, we working class dogs are fucked. Please read the platforms. Bush wants to stimulate spending and cut taxes. Who has money to spend these days? Kerry & the Democratic platform wants to reverse Bush's tax cuts and apply the money differently to benefit the middle class. Seriously, read up on this stuff. If anyone has a sound argument as to how Bush's tax cuts benefit the middle class and poor - I would love to hear it. (One line comments of criticism won't cut it for me nbc.)
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Old 09-20-2004, 02:27 PM   #36
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The same arguments were raised during the Reagan administration and they proved to be false. Tax cuts are not an instant solution (as if there really is one). But they do strengthen the economy in the long run. It is easy to say “tax the wealthy” because they are not inherently a sympathetic group (but they have done nothing wrong except earn large salaries).

Regarding services you receive - I would examine the way your local governments spend their money before concluding that the tax cuts are the reason that fees are increased. Agencies have their own agendas and may not always be acting in your best interest. Besides, do you think funneling the money through the government is the most efficient means of paying for services? Sometimes it is more efficient to pay for services at the local level, instead of watching your tax dollar go through various agencies, levels of government and administrative infrastructure before getting to you.

I face many of the same struggles you do with paying for children's activities. Every fall, between fund-raisers and requests for direct support, we are asked to pay $$ to help education. Still, I prefer to write a check (when I can) to a classroom instead of having it taxed out of my paycheck and hope it trickles down in the right place.
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Old 09-20-2004, 02:56 PM   #37
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Well personally I like the tax cuts and I don't want them taken away. With 3 kids that means 1800 bucks to me and that sure helps a lot. I'm not looking forward to the high taxing of the democrats. I don't see what state and local budget problems have to do with anything. They are seperate funds and budgets. Mine happen to be in surplus, but even if they weren't the US gov't wouldn't be giving them anything unless it was some kind of road bill or something.

I'm really surprised to hear Kerry doesn't like free trade, it's a big liberal cause. I don't believe he'll do anything to stop the outsourcing because the big corporations like it and they have the lobbyists to get their way, the little guy doesn't.
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Old 09-20-2004, 03:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The same arguments were raised during the Reagan administration and they proved to be false. Tax cuts are not an instant solution (as if there really is one). But they do strengthen the economy in the long run. It is easy to say “tax the wealthy” because they are not inherently a sympathetic group (but they have done nothing wrong except earn large salaries).

Regarding services you receive - I would examine the way your local governments spend their money before concluding that the tax cuts are the reason that fees are increased. Agencies have their own agendas and may not always be acting in your best interest. Besides, do you think funneling the money through the government is the most efficient means of paying for services? Sometimes it is more efficient to pay for services at the local level, instead of watching your tax dollar go through various agencies, levels of government and administrative infrastructure before getting to you.

I face many of the same struggles you do with paying for children's activities. Every fall, between fund-raisers and requests for direct support, we are asked to pay $$ to help education. Still, I prefer to write a check (when I can) to a classroom instead of having it taxed out of my paycheck and hope it trickles down in the right place.
I wasn't a parent during the Reagan administration and my arguments are current and based on my personal experiences which I consider factual.

I'm not saying tax the wealthy. I just don't agree with cutting taxes that benefit the wealthy and expecting economy spending to pick up when most wealthy people already spend all that they want. If the total tax bill is shifted unfairly to the wealthy - then what is a fairer structure? It seems that basic needs should be met for all, then taxes should be cut.

You have a good point and I will look into the state and local budget spending. You also have a good point that the money being funneled through the government may not be the most efficient means of paying for services. I think that if it is structured right - it is the best way that all can be taken care of. Perhaps more time should be spent getting the structure right.

What about all of the communities that don't have the extra money for the fundraisers and extra support? Why should there be communities that don't have enough extra for their kids to have a standard education? If everything for your children's education was taken care of properly and you didn't have to struggle to write extra checks then you know it trickled down right. It should be a right guarenteed to all kids, not the ones with parents that can afford it.
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Old 09-20-2004, 03:18 PM   #39
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I'm really surprised to hear Kerry doesn't like free trade, it's a big liberal cause. I don't believe he'll do anything to stop the outsourcing because the big corporations like it and they have the lobbyists to get their way, the little guy doesn't.
I think you are thinking of fair trade as the big liberal cause.

It does seem like a contridiction though, and I've been thinking about it. Companies get taxed a certain way to have employees by paying employment taxes. By outsourcing, they avoid these taxes and make out. That makes it unfair to Americans because not only do the corporations save money on cheaper labor - they also loose tax revenue on the lost payroll taxes. If you outsource to Americans, corporations are supposed to file 1099's, which is a check and balance to make sure that the contract labor files and pays taxes. I doubt outside countries have to file tax returns if we use their services.
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Old 09-20-2004, 07:29 PM   #40
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Another big problem is illegal aliens who are payed about $2 an hour, like the ones at the infamous gas station. I've noticed them all over now, not just in big cities. From what I see they must all live together, they travel together in vans, over a dozen people stuffed in. That must be how they get by on such small salaries, they batch up in big groups and pool their money. Some people, like the gas station, won't even hire Americans anymore because they have to pay them minimum wage and turn them in on their taxes. I bet the illegals are also not turned in on the taxes, it only leaves a paper trail.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:02 AM   #41
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Well personally I like the tax cuts and I don't want them taken away.
I think that if you're not making more than USD 200,000 you'll be probably safe that the cuts aren't rolled back.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:07 AM   #42
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Even though the rich save a lot, everybody saves something. It depends on how much you make of course.

Another thing about the illegals being payed low is that they have no benefits, no future, and are basically slave labor in some cases. It's not even fair to them.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:33 AM   #43
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Besides the lovely tax-cuts everyone should remember that someone has to pack back the debts the current administration is creating (well i guess it will be the burden of our children)
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:37 AM   #44
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How is the German economy coping with it's Baby Boomer retirement? I saw a segment on Deutsche Welle but I wasn't paying attention
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:59 AM   #45
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basically less social security since the goverment dosn't want to spend more money.
Also more presure on the unemployed people (also i think it's pretty useless because we don't have enough jobs for everyone)
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