Michael Moore's Commentary on George W. Bush and the Enron Corporation - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 02-02-2002, 02:43 AM   #31
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Michael Moore IS an idiot. And no, I don't ahve to provide my own arguments for that, when Spiral_Staircase provided soem great points on it. I defer to Spiral.
Keep up the good fight, Bubba.
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Old 02-02-2002, 03:07 AM   #32
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Arthur Anderson sound like the idiots. They've just been caught out here in Australia for doing funny book keeping with a really massive company that went belly up recently.
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Old 02-02-2002, 03:16 AM   #33
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Still the most popular radio talk show host ON EARTH, since you asked.

Roger and Me. Released during the first year of the elder Bush Administration: 1989. Since then, Moore had a TV show for one season, and, well, that's about it.

(Oh, and a music video for Rage Against the Machine, other malcontents feeding on the economic system they loathed; that is, before they fell apart too.)

Mr. Entertainment, Michael Moore.

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 02-01-2002).]
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Old 02-02-2002, 03:26 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
That's nice. Feel better about yourself now?

Thanks for posting the letter, Dano.
Actually, I tire from having to repeat myself.

And please don't patronize me.

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 02-01-2002).]
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Old 02-02-2002, 06:39 AM   #35
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Bubba's the man.
Melon were praying for.
Michael Moore is a predictable oppurtunist.

End of story.
Diamond
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Old 02-02-2002, 08:36 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden:
Arthur Anderson sound like the idiots. They've just been caught out here in Australia for doing funny book keeping with a really massive company that went belly up recently.

Gosh which major co. would that be I wonder?
We have so many to choose from lately!
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Old 02-02-2002, 09:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
as much as you clearly love Howard Stern, his numbers pale in comparison to those of Rush.
Oh my...now this statement is very disconcerting.

Your logic assumes this:

If one hates Rush Limbaugh, one must love Howard Stern.

However, did I once even imply that I loved Howard Stern? In fact, I cannot stand the guy. Any moron can resort to crass humor and cheap sex jokes. He is as predictable as Jerry Springer or those fucking stupid "Girls Gone Wild" videos. I find him to simply be a virus, whom I will only give credit for showing the weakness of government regulation in general in that it is more profitable to break the law and pay fines than to adhere to the law.

Regardless, I believe that Stern has a right to be on the air, and, even though I hate Rush Limbaugh, I will defend his right to be on the air as well.

My point of posting ratings statistics was to state the futility of proclaiming any one person the "king" of radio. You may state 20 million listeners per week for Limbaugh, but when stacked up against the 136 million per week who do listen to the radio, that statistic isn't that impressive, now is it?

I will grant you the reality that Howard Stern likely does get far less in ratings than Rush Limbaugh, but I honestly don't know why people lump those two together. They have nothing in common. Stern is not a political commentator, but a shock jock whose primary aim is to entertain.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-02-2002, 09:15 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Michael Moore is a predictable oppurtunist.
Speaking of predictable opportunists...

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 02-02-2002, 09:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener:
...and Premiere Radio Networks is a subsidary of Clear Channel, which owns more radio stations than any other group in the country - so of course this "Rush" program is distributed widely throughout the states. Does that make him the "King" of the medium? No, it makes Clear Channel the "King of the Medium." He's just a pawn.
That is another thing to put into consideration. Clear Channel (divested from SFX) owns over 1/3 of all American radio stations, much thanks to ownership deregulation in 1996. Howard Stern is owned by Infinity Broadcasting (part of CBS), which is much smaller.

But there is also the fact that AM radio, in particular, is dominated by conservative listeners.

Of course, people like Rush Limbaugh and that fake "Dr." Laura Schlessinger are going to do fantastic with that kind of listenership, especially when owned by the largest owner of radio stations in the U.S., but the statistics are misleading. Radio listenership, in general, is in severe decline, compared to three decades ago, and AM radio is near financial collapse, sustained barely by the talk radio/news format. Rush has certainly found his home in right-wing AM radio, but floundered in the more ideologically diverse television market. The same with "Dr." Laura...how long did her TV talk show last?

What a silly argument this is becoming. I think I've made my point.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 02-02-2002).]
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Old 02-02-2002, 11:14 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener:
Yes Bubba - Rush wins the big "more stations" argument. Great for Rush!

And I will again state that they are probably lower-reach AM stations in smaller markets all over America. Yes, again you are correct.

Stern is in major markets on high-powered FM stations. You won't see Stern in Keokouk, IA because 1) the station probably cannot afford to have Stern in their market and 2) he too brash for many of these smaller markets.

Dr. Laura and Rush are both distributed by the same company (Premiere Radio Networks). I would not be suprised if many affiliates have a distribution agreement that says "run more than one of our programs, you get a cut on the price." Smart business - quick distribution! Makes for highly distributed programs - but does not mean superior programming (and I will NEVER argue Stern is superior programming - truly lowest common denominator stuff - Rush's stuff is more intelligent).

As for sources on the web, I was hoping to find some Arbitron stuff - not a Stern fan site and Rush's site. That would be like soley using Moore's site to argue the whole Enron thing - it's just a propaganda beast. Better example - could you possibly believe everything you read about U2 you find here?
Not only does Rush win the "more stations" argument, it appears that he is in EVERY market that Stern is in.

Yes, Stern is in some "major markets". But Rush is in the same markets AND THEN SOME. It's not a question of a few large markets vs. many small markets, it's a question of a few large markets vs. those same large markets + the many small markets.

Further, I'm aware of the practice of tying shows together in deals, but that usually inflates the numbers for the LESS popular show; stations will air show X in order to show Rush, or Paul Harvey, or whatever.

Again, Stern is only in 40-odd cities; Rush is in the SAME 40 cities, plus some 560 others. It's like caparing the capacity of a drinking glass and a bathtub; your arguments may make the glass slightly bigger or the bathtub slightly smaller, but Rush sitll dominates, and I believe the stats will demonstrate that.
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Old 02-02-2002, 11:21 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Oh my...now this statement is very disconcerting.

Your logic assumes this:

If one hates Rush Limbaugh, one must love Howard Stern.

However, did I once even imply that I loved Howard Stern? In fact, I cannot stand the guy. Any moron can resort to crass humor and cheap sex jokes. He is as predictable as Jerry Springer or those fucking stupid "Girls Gone Wild" videos. I find him to simply be a virus, whom I will only give credit for showing the weakness of government regulation in general in that it is more profitable to break the law and pay fines than to adhere to the law.

Regardless, I believe that Stern has a right to be on the air, and, even though I hate Rush Limbaugh, I will defend his right to be on the air as well.

My point of posting ratings statistics was to state the futility of proclaiming any one person the "king" of radio. You may state 20 million listeners per week for Limbaugh, but when stacked up against the 136 million per week who do listen to the radio, that statistic isn't that impressive, now is it?

I will grant you the reality that Howard Stern likely does get far less in ratings than Rush Limbaugh, but I honestly don't know why people lump those two together. They have nothing in common. Stern is not a political commentator, but a shock jock whose primary aim is to entertain.

Melon

1. I never implied YOU like Stern. If you noticed, I was replying to Zonelistner.

2. Yes, it may not be a fair assesment to compare Rush and Stern directly, but both have programs that center around themselves as the stars, and both attempt to entertain (though Rush's show is clearly more informative).

3. If comparing Rush to Stern isn't fair, it's certainly not logical to compare Rush to 136 million who listen to the radio for music, etc. What's MORE fair is to compare Rush to news-oriented television shows - O'Rielly, etc. Even if Rush doesn't beat those ratings, his are at least comparable.
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Old 02-02-2002, 11:41 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
That is another thing to put into consideration. Clear Channel (divested from SFX) owns over 1/3 of all American radio stations, much thanks to ownership deregulation in 1996. Howard Stern is owned by Infinity Broadcasting (part of CBS), which is much smaller.

But there is also the fact that AM radio, in particular, is dominated by conservative listeners.

Of course, people like Rush Limbaugh and that fake "Dr." Laura Schlessinger are going to do fantastic with that kind of listenership, especially when owned by the largest owner of radio stations in the U.S., but the statistics are misleading. Radio listenership, in general, is in severe decline, compared to three decades ago, and AM radio is near financial collapse, sustained barely by the talk radio/news format. Rush has certainly found his home in right-wing AM radio, but floundered in the more ideologically diverse television market. The same with "Dr." Laura...how long did her TV talk show last?

What a silly argument this is becoming. I think I've made my point.

Melon

No, you haven't.

As you say, Clear Channel bought up so many stations because of deregulation in 1996. Rush debuted eight years prior, and was dominant by the time Clinton won in 1992. The suggestion that Clear Channel shoved Rush down everyone's throats is ridiculous.

(Amusing: Moore thinks Bush should have known about the Enron collapse during the 2000 election, when Enron stocks were still high - and you think Clear Channel is why is Rush is popular, when Rush was established many years earlier. That whole cause-and-effect thing is tricky.)

Further, the suggestion that Rush dominates because talk-radio is conservative is also ass-backwards. In 1988, everybody thought talk radio was local, that Rush's show (a national, daytime program with no guests) would fail immediately.

Rush didn't prosper from a beneficial environment; he was so sucessful he altered the entire environment. Rush has been such a pioneer that we can't imagine a radio environment that isn't conservative.

And it hasn't been from a lack of liberal competition, either; Mario Cuomo and others have tried to do for liberalism what Rush has done for conservatism, and they have failed.

As for the TV show, differences in media matter; Rush was attempting to produce a half-hour version of his radio show on television for late-night syndication in an environment dominated by the networks with niches already filled out by sitcom re-runs and trashy Springer-type shows. It was too different and never found traction.

But, of course, everyone has their missteps (see: Rattle and Hum, the movie), and Rush's success on the radio, in print, and online is not disputed seriously, and certainly not by anyone who knows what they're talking about.
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Old 02-02-2002, 11:44 AM   #43
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And while I'm here, Melon, I would like to remind you that you haven't explained this little quote:

In case you haven't picked up on public opinion outside of your immediate environment, the general consensus is that Rush Limbaugh is a right-wing extremist not even worthy of listening to. Shall I now call everyone who listens to him (which does include you) an extremist and "not that bright"?

Where is the magical "general consensus"?
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Old 02-02-2002, 02:01 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
He is wrong, and you are wrong to agree with him.
Oh, dear Bubba, this need you have to be right, and the way you are such a big bully about it...it's just a cry for love.

*smooch*

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Old 02-02-2002, 05:26 PM   #45
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Just in case you missed it the first time, Bubba:

Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
Oh, dear Bubba, this need you have to be right, and the way you are such a big bully about it...it's just a cry for love.

*smooch*



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