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Old 11-11-2004, 01:16 AM   #106
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Oh I have read many different threads. I get that you all think that he is fat and stupid. While I cannot argue about the fat condition, I take issue with him being regarded as a liar and stupid. Please, cite one example of a lie he has told. And, it better be at least somewhat documented to the degree that he documents his shit. If anyone noticed, at first Fox and other networks had their pundits saying F 9/11 was made up of lies. After he threatened lawsuits, the word lie was changed to propaganda. And, that I'll give you. His latest movie is not a geniune documentary - it's opinion.
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Old 11-11-2004, 01:46 AM   #107
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Fine you want a lie, how about the "headline" of the Bloomington Pantagraph that said latest recount shows Gore victory, this was actually an op-ed piece and it was never ever a headline, the paper shown in the movie was a fabrication.
The F9/11 view


the actual piece


The bullshit about the Saudi's being allowed to fly out of the country while airspace was restricted. This did not happen and when they did fly out (after airspace was reopened) it was Richard Clark that authorised it, all in the 9.11 commission.

>Moore asserts that the Afghan war was fought only to enable the Unocal company to build a pipeline. In fact, Unocal dropped that idea back in August 1998.
>Moore mentions that the Taliban visited Texas while Bush was governor, over a possible pipeline deal with Unocal. But Moore doesn't say that they never actually met with Bush or that the deal went bust in 1998 and had been supported by the Clinton administration.
>Saddam Hussein Iraq "had never attacked the United States. A nation that had never threatened to attack the United States. A nation that had never murdered a single American citizen.". Now does this not overlook the attempts to down Fighter Planes during the peace, assassination attempt on former President Bush, sanctuary for the WTC Bombers how about the thousands of dollars given to suicide homocide bombers who most definitely did murder American civilians. Saddam was complicit in the murder of Americans

How about a distortion, take this quote from the National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice that was partially used in the film (in bold).
Quote:
Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.”
Chrisopher Hitchens had it right when he wrote
Quote:
To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:32 AM   #108
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Ya beat me to it...LOL
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:10 AM   #109
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http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:30 AM   #110
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This is a matter of personal preference and political views. If you're like me and pessimistic about the situation in Iraq, and now pessimistic in general, F9/11 was flawed but not trash. There were certainly weak spots in the film. For example, he said Hamid Karzai got in in Afghanistan because he was a former consultant for one of the Bush-connected businesses. This probably didn't hurt, but the Afghans who had that meeting in Germany chose him. They didn't have to. Karzai has pretty good credentials as an Afghan/Pashtun nationalist, and had been fighting the Taliban since the U.S. offensive started after 9/11. There are other flaws in the film that it's too early in the morning to think of.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:40 AM   #111
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from Variety..

Michael Moore met with Harvey Weinstein and Moore says they plan to start working -- now -- on "Fahrenheit 9/11½." "We want to get cameras rolling now and have it ready in two-three years," Moore says. "We want to document and commercialize it. Fifty-one percent of the American people lacked information (in this election) and we want to educate and enlighten them. They weren't told the truth. We're communicators and it's up to us to start doing it now. The official mourning period is over today and there is a silver lining -- George W. Bush is prohibited by law from running again." And as for those who claim that Hollywood was an albatross on the Democrats' neck, Moore says, "America loves Hollywood. When given a chance to vote for someone from Hollywood, they jump in." He cited the history of successful Republican actor-politicians from George Murphy to Ronnie Reagan to Arnold. "Who is the Democrats' Arnold? We have a number of them. What American wouldn't vote for Tom Hanks? Hollywood is full of people like that." When I asked what actor would trade a $20 million salary and a percentage of the gross, he countered with "Let's pay the actor-politicians a presidential salary of $20 million -- plus a percentage of the GNP." He says "Hollywood gets a chance for one more vote this year": Moore and Harvey are going ahead on the Oscar campaign for "Fahrenheit 9/11" in best picture and other applicable categories. Harvey told him, "Let's do it. And I said 'whatever Harvey wants, I'm ready.'" He isn't bothered by the absence of suitable category for a Golden Globe nomination --" We're not a musical, comedy or dramatic feature." He laughingly admits, "I don't know if people want to see me on the stage of the Kodak again. However, since my wife (Kathleen) was the producer, if I win -- she speaks!". Thousands of the "Fahrenheit" DVDs have been donated to libraries and schools. He gave them away on his trek through 63 cities in the past month -- they included stops in Ohio and Florida. The issues (for the next film) have not changed because of the election. "They are Iraq and terrorism." He says he continues to get mail from the armed forces telling of their disappointments." I asked about his hate mail? "There's very little. It's dropped down to a few drive-by gloaters." And yes, he'll continue preparing his other film, "Sicko," on the national health care industry.
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Old 11-11-2004, 08:06 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
This is a matter of personal preference and political views.
Perhaps the subjective enjoyment of Moore's works, but the veracity in which he conducts his work is not a matter of personal preference.
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Old 11-11-2004, 11:22 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perhaps the subjective enjoyment of Moore's works, but the veracity in which he conducts his work is not a matter of personal preference.
Yes, I was mainly referring to subjective enjoyment of his stuff. He's a very good manipulator of images, which is basically what any good film-maker is. I pointed out that he gave a one-sided view of Hamid Karzai, and that's not a subjective thing, he quite clearly didn't say anything about the election of the Afghan representatives in Germany or Karzai's spotless nationalist credentials, which include fighting through a tough battle for control of Kandahar after getting hit. That's what U.S. soldiers get Purple Hearts for.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:27 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
There is more integrity here in the pinky of some of the posters in here than Michael Moore has, and that alone gives a majority of the posters in here the right to criticize Michael Moore.
Agreed, I feel that Michael Moore hurt the dems this election with his far-left babble overlapping the moderates. Not that I hate the guy, but many people feel that his facts are made up, and I'm not convinced that he's as truthful as the media claims he is.
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:13 PM   #115
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Ok, here's my first response to the so-called lie. I'm not sure why Moore distorted the headline from a letter, when it would have been just as easy to post:
A] consortium [Tribune Co., owner of the Times; Associated Press; CNN; the New York Times; the Palm Beach Post; the St. Petersburg Times; the Wall Street Journal; and the Washington Post] hired the NORC [National Opinion Research Center, a nonpartisan research organization affiliated with the University of Chicago] to view each untallied ballot and gather information about how it was marked. The media organizations then used computers to sort and tabulate votes, based on varying scenarios that had been raised during the post-election scramble in Florida. Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, Mr. Gore erased Mr. Bush's advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Donald Lambro, “Recount Provides No Firm Answers,” Washington Times, November 12, 2001.

Moore to come...haha, oh what a terrible pun
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:18 PM   #116
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Further:
FAHRENHEIT 9/11: “At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.”

NOTE: It should be noted that even though the film does not make the allegation, strong evidence has recently come to light that at least one private plane flew to pick up Saudi nationals while private flights were still grounded. Moreover, for nearly three years, the White House has denied that this flight existed. This was reported in the June 9, 2004 St. Petersburg Times article cited below.

After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people,mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12; http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/
hearing10/staff_statement_10.pdf
It should be noted that the US Customs and Border Protection document released by the Department of Homeland Security under the FOIA, Feb 24, 2004 lists 162 Saudi Nationals who flew out of the country between 9/11/2001 and 9/15/2001, departing from New York’s Kennedy airport, Washington’s Dulles, and Dallas Fort Worth. http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/
2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.
For an official list of Saudi Passport holders (names redacted) who flew out of the country between 9.11.2001 – 9.15.2001, see US Customs and Border Protection document released by the Department of Homeland Security under the FOIA, Feb 24, 2004; http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/
2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.
TheSt. Petersburg Times reported on Jun 9, 2004:
o "Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left. The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country.”

o Moreover: “For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose… The terrorism panel, better known as the 9/11 Commission, said in April that it knew of six chartered flights with 142 people aboard, mostly Saudis, that left the United States between Sept. 14 and 24, 2001. But it has said nothing about the Tampa flight… The 9/11 Commission, which has said the flights out of the United States were handled appropriately by the FBI, appears concerned with the handling of the Tampa flight.

o "Most of the aircraft allowed to fly in U.S. airspace on Sept. 13 were empty airliners being ferried from the airports where they made quick landings on Sept. 11. The reopening of the airspace included paid charter flights, but not private, nonrevenue flights.” Jean Heller, “TIA now verifies flight of Saudis; The government has long denied that two days after the 9/11 attacks, the three were allowed to fly.” St. Petersburg Times, June 9, 2004
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:25 PM   #117
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"Saddam Hussein Iraq "had never attacked the United States. A nation that had never threatened to attack the United States. A nation that had never murdered a single American citizen.". Now does this not overlook the attempts to down Fighter Planes during the peace, assassination attempt on former President Bush, sanctuary for the WTC Bombers how about the thousands of dollars given to suicide homocide bombers who most definitely did murder American civilians. Saddam was complicit in the murder of Americans"

Being completely explicit, an attack requires a lot more than firing a couple of missles up in the air at jets. Providing sanctury hardly is an attack; nevertheless, I have beef with that point being brought up, prove it! You also need to prove that the money Saddam supplied to Hamas was used to blow up American citizens. How many US citizens have been killed by Palestinians? (Side note: I know Israel has run over at least three westerners with their tanks).
Did moore stretch things for more visual impact? Yes. But, the claims he makes are truthful. If they were not you can bet your ass there would be lawsuits instead of frivilous slate pieces.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:03 PM   #118
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Since the Oslo accords 36 American citizens have been murdered by Palestinian Arab Terrorists (24 since the year 2000). Also the ISM imbeciles who choose to "stand down" Israeli bulldozers like Corrie (or as some have dubbed her St. Pancake) are not just run over by Israel.

The claims are not truthful, they are misleading and ultimately dishonest claims that's validity rests on fine technicalities.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:13 PM   #119
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Thanks for the info concerning the 36 american lives. However, this does not constitute a war on Iraq. Frankly, we know that Saudi Arabia provides financial resources for terrorist groups. Further, they provide ground for terrorists to live. It was afterall, saudi's who attacked us on 9/11.
But I feel like arguing is pointless. I can provide sources backing up the claims Moore makes in his movie all day long, but you still claim they are lies.
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Old 11-11-2004, 07:24 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by adam's_mistress
Well said, Irvine!!!

he is an alternative voice for people tired of the seeming one-sidedness we've been fed by the mainstream media over the past 4 years.

What is the seeming one-sidedness that I constantly hear about. I have a father-in-law who preaches this same mantra. This is yet another fabrication of the radical left. Stick to real issues. I have been a Bush supporter, but I don't really like what is going on in Iraq. However, Kerry never came up with any real plan on how to do the job differently. Plus, when it comes to conservative social issues it is obvious that Kerry loses that battle.
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