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Old 11-05-2004, 02:51 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


care to show us?
Gladly.

Roe v. Wade -- should be overturned and the problem of abortion returned to the states. SCOTUS makes a moral judgment about the value of a fetus vs. the rights of a mother which it is not empowerd to make.

Pro-Life (excluding cases of rape and incest) -- the most natural time to ascribe personhood to the fetus is at fertilization, because at that time the fetus initiates its own development.

Sodomy -- I do think that laws prohibiting sodomy are unconstitutional, as sodomy is a private activity.

Abstinence education in public schools -- It would not be unconstitutional if public schools decided to teach abstinence exclusively. I'm not sure it's a good idea though. I think it's fair to say that public schools overall do a poor job of explaining to children the emotional and personal consequences of sexual activity, though.

Abstinence education in 3rd world countries -- it is a very effective way of stifling the AIDS virus (though we don't need to be patronizing to people who have contracted AIDS because of their sexual history). Especially since there is a popular myth in a number of countries that having sex with a virgin will cure the AIDS virus (leading to the horrific rape of young girls in a number of cases).

Family planning education in 3rd world countries -- condoms sort of okay, abortion bad, for reasons mentioned above.

Obviously these arguments are somewhat abbreviated, but I hope you see that social issues cannot be divided along secular/religious lines as neatly as you claim. I'm not going to argue these points further; you can read some of the other threads for that.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:51 PM   #62
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Secularists have the same "our worldview is correct" attitude at anyone else.



well, part of the definition of a secularist is that there are no correct worldviews, only competing worldviews. but, if you really want, that could be considered a worldview.

and, yes, in a modern, non-theocratic state, we legislate based upon secular notions of evidence and fact, not articles of religious faith.

as for the abortion comment, yes pro-choice and anti-choice positions can be argued from a scientific worldview. but i am speaking about government choosing to pull taxpayer money from programs that offer family planning in 3rd world countries because some politicans claims that their constituents don't want their tax dollars supporting abortions. while abortion only comprises a miniscule part of family planning, it's still an illegitimate argument because abortion is legal in the united states and therefore to withdraw money from a program which practices a legal procedure. the argument that "i shouldn't have to pay for it because it's against my religion" is invalid.

and, in the case of family planning in 3rd world countries, it's also immoral. but that's another story.

and i *really* don't want to get into right and wrong in regards to abortion.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:59 PM   #63
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore Responds

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



well, part of the definition of a secularist is that there are no correct worldviews, only competing worldviews. but, if you really want, that could be considered a worldview.

and, yes, in a modern, non-theocratic state, we legislate based upon secular notions of evidence and fact, not articles of religious faith.
Empirical data is insufficient to make any sort of social or political argument. It must be interpreted in light of a set of moral/ethical axioms, and you cannot toss out a certain set of axioms just because they are religiously motivated.
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by pianorocker
Too bad they're playing Michigan STATE this weekend, not Michigan.
Damn. Go Spartans then I guess.

Ah....I wish I could add something to the rest of this thread but it seems a rehash of alot of other stuff we've already talked about. why not resurrect previous threads instead of hijacking this one?

[from someone who had hijacked threads before, yes, so sue me]
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:42 PM   #65
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Of course, Ohio State still gets to get their butts kicked by Michigan on Nov. 21.
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:51 PM   #66
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Originally posted by speedracer
Of course, Ohio State still gets to get their butts kicked by Michigan on Nov. 21.
oh. my. gawd.

HEAR YE, HEAR YE! Let it be known that on this day, the 5th of November in the year of our LORD 2004, that I, sharky, agreed with the poster known as speedracer.
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:52 PM   #67
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I feel the FYM love returning to the room!!
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:55 PM   #68
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I feel the FYM love returning to the room!!
Go Oregon State.
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Old 11-05-2004, 03:57 PM   #69
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Have a great weekend everyone!
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Old 11-05-2004, 04:58 PM   #70
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People speak of secular government as if it is a bad thing. I would just like to know what they would prefer, religious government perhaps?

The seperation of church and state is what makes a country secular, now this is a very important thing for all citizens. If the state derived its power through religion, then it would be highly opressive. If one disobeyed religious laws for a particular religion then they would become enemies of the state, the state would be infalible - this would be wrong.

You are free to practice your religious affairs the way that you see fit, you are free to live your life and adhere to what your religion says - but it is wrong for you to integrate religion into the government because it would not be able to reflect the people, you would be forcing your belief system upon other people and that would be wrong. If you oppose abortion then do not have one, that is what choice is all about. If you want to teach creationism to your kids then do it at home but don't go dragging it into a science classroom. If you want to remake the US as a religious ideal where everybody must conform to that religion then you are betraying the freedoms that were paid for with death that make America a unique nation.

There is no freedom to be found when the element of choice is removed.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:39 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
That's the best he can do?

I think Moore has lost his edge.
Give him a break, the man's depressed
I think he has found a political niche of his own and I don't have to be a carpenter myself if I see that a shed isn't built properly. Um, right? I'm high on caffeine.

foray
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Old 11-05-2004, 11:01 PM   #72
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Michael Who?
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Old 11-06-2004, 12:22 AM   #73
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Re: Michael Moore Responds



3. The only age group in which the majority voted for Kerry was young adults (Kerry: 54%, Bush: 44%


lol- it's been that way for ages. The young are always enchanted by the left.

4. In spite of Bush's win, the majority of Americans still think the country is headed in the wrong direction (56%), think the war wasn't worth fighting (51%), and don’t approve of the job George W. Bush is doing (52%).

And your guy still lost!! What's that tell ya?


6. Michigan voted for Kerry! So did the entire Northeast, the birthplace of our democracy. So did 6 of the 8 Great Lakes States. And the whole West Coast! Plus Hawaii. Ok, that's a start.


knucklehead- The dems have always held these parts of the country!

If this is a good start then the Democratic party has been spinning their wheels for how long??

And they will continue to spin until they stop alienating the South and the West.


8. 88% of Bush's support came from white voters. In 50 years, America will no longer have a white majority. Hey, 50 years isn't such a long time! If you're ten years old and reading this, your golden years will be truly golden and you will be well cared for in your old age.


Funny thing, though. The Republican Party will still thrive as our population demographics shift, due to its ability to change with the times. The dems are still stuck in Camelot. Bush got over 40% of the latino vote.

9. Gays, thanks to the ballot measures passed on Tuesday, cannot get married in 11 new states. Thank God. Just think of all those wedding gifts we won't have to buy now.

Democracy in action. Those states were correct in letting their people decide on this issue, rather than judges and lawmakers. Expect more states to follow.


16. There are nearly 300 million Americans -- 200 million of them of voting age. We only lost by three and a half million! That's not a landslide

In this Information Age, where we get to learn as much as we care about each candidate, I would guess the days of landslides are over. Wait ..... 2008 ..... Guiliani vs. Hillary... Oops! what was I thinking....

-- it means we're almost there.
No it doesn't.... Dems won 1992 and 96 easily. Barely lost in 2000, but never really in a position to win in 2004. Sounds like you're falling further behind...

Imagine losing by 20 million.

Imagine Guiliani Vs Hillary...

If you had 58 yards to go before you reached the goal line and then you barreled down 55 of those yards, would you stop on the three yard line, pick up the ball and go home crying -- especially when you get to start the next down on the three yard line?

Michael, why on earth are you worried about going 58 yards for a score when the Democrats had a first and goal just before their convention? I guess inviting you got them three straight unsportsmanlike conducts....

17. Finally and most importantly, over 55 million Americans voted for the candidate dubbed "The #1 Liberal in the Senate." That's more than the total number of voters who voted for either Reagan, Bush I, Clinton or Gore. Again, more people voted for Kerry than Reagan. If the media are looking for a trend it should be this -- that so many Americans were, for the first time since Kennedy, willing to vote for an out-and-out liberal. The country has always been filled with evangelicals -- that is not news. What IS news is that so many people have shifted toward a Massachusetts liberal. In fact, that's BIG news. Which means, don't expect the mainstream media, the ones who brought you the Iraq War, to ever report the real truth about November 2, 2004. In fact, it's better that they don't. We'll need the element of surprise in 2008.

Yeah, and Bush gathered more votes than any candidate EVER.

Neither figure should be valued too high as both were effected by the highest voter turn out since 1968.

It's all a numbers game, Michael, there is no SHIFT towards some liberal from Mass.

Given the President's poor approval rating, Kerry didn't have to be all that good to win. He wasn't.
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Old 11-06-2004, 04:58 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by swizzlestick
Here's 10 more reasons:

1. For 4 more years, we will be killing terrorists where they live instead of the other way around.
2. For 4 more years, integrity and honesty will prevail in the Oval Office.
3. For 4 more years, America will decide its fate instead of the UN and Jacques Chirac.
4. For 4 more years, the spending power will be in the hands on each individual instead of the government's hands.
5. For 4 more years, those who work will be rewarded with more money instead of apathy being the path to riches.
6. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to stop the leeches of society (lawyers) from filing frivolous lawsuits.
7. For 4 more years, the moral majority will not have immorality forced down their throats by the freakish few.
8. For 4 more years, the fight will continue to protect the unborn.
9. For 4 more years, America will be a capitalistic society.
10. For 4 more years, John Kerry will be just another Senator from Taxachusettes.
With regard to reason number 3, I'm sick to the back teeth of listening to people talk about how America will decide its fate instead of the UN and Jacques Chirac. As if this wasn't the case anyway! So most of the UN, including France, didn't agree with Bush's decision to wage a phoney and illegal war. Big deal, get over it!! Does it not dawn on u that these countries have a right to express their own opinion and not automatically follow the US when it comes to international affairs??

The whole anti-French thing that has pervaded certain parts of US culture since this mad war is a disgrace. All it does is remind us that there will always be pompous, arrogant fools who think their way is always the right way.
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Old 11-06-2004, 06:09 AM   #75
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For all of you who live to criticize -

the day that you can win international film awards for your movies, let alone an Oscar
and
when you can show me a lifetime of work standing up for the rights of the unemployed and the disenfranchised,

or, in simple terms,
when you can show me something that you have ACTUALLY DONE to make this world a better place (not just for Republicans)

THEN I will fathom that you have the credibility to criticize Michael Moore!

In other words, first talk to the man in the mirror.
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