Michael Moore couldn't fool Pete Townshend

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Pete has every right to refuse, especially if he dosen't agree with Moore's acuracy as a documentary film maker. I don't think this was about money at all. It was about 'principles.' Good for Pete, he stood up for his song!
 
Pete only lets his songs be used for important stuff like selling cars and allergy medicine. :up:
 
Nothing controversial about cars and allergy medicines. I can see how he wouldn't want his song associated with a load of shit and dynamite like that movie. Good for Pete! :up:
 
BluberryPoptart said:
Nothing controversial about cars and allergy medicines.

No, that's what Pete's stash of child porn is for.
 
yes.

You are right. You are missing the point here, though. People keep on lashing out at this movie, calling it all lies, without seeing it.

In reality, Pete wouldn't make much money on it playing in a movie. There is FAR more money to make in a commercial.
 
zoney! said:
You are right. You are missing the point here, though. People keep on lashing out at this movie, calling it all lies, without seeing it.

It's disappointing too, because there are lots of moments in the film that really *can't* be the result of Moore misconstruing the facts. Instead, conservatives just pick on the most irrelevant moments of the film as "evidence." FYI, for those who haven't seen it, the scene with Paul Wolfowitz fixing his hair that is oft brought up is one of those irrelevant scenes; in conjunction with other key members of the Bush Administration, the film begins with them all putting on makeup for the camera and ends with them all taking it off. It is, essentially, a clever way to introduce the "cast of characters" and to dismiss them, but, in terms of the relevance of any of it? There isn't any, and it isn't even implied to be relevant.

But where it works is when they catch the Bush Administration in their lies in the media, where they count on the fact that news media is inherently disposable and they don't expect anyone to dig back far enough to pick on the contradiction. And Moore doesn't need to say anything; watching a clip of Bush saying one thing and saying another is evidence enough. Or how about Bush's military records? Using the Freedom of Information Act, he requested Bush's military records on two separate occasions: once in 2000 (before all the 9/11 hoopla) and once after 9/11. The glaring difference was the name of a person blacked out on the post-9/11 report, but not on a pre-9/11 report. And the name was of a military pal who turned into a business partner, who had extensive ties to the Binladin Group. So what did Bush have to hide? These things Moore doesn't have to make up: the documents speak for themselves. And the connection between the Bush family and the Bin Laden family is really quite eerie; but don't take that to mean that Bush had ties with Osama bin Laden, because Moore doesn't say that. Osama is repeatedly shown to be this kind of aloof religious fanatic, but it does show how Bush's intimate ties with both the House of Saud and the Binladin Group might be why there is a major conflict of interest on this "war on terror." After all, how does the fact that nearly all the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia connect to Iraq? They don't.

Or how about the Taliban? Watching news footage of the Taliban in Texas in April 2001 to discuss an oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to Pakistan is pretty eerie as well. Here we have a regime with aggregious human rights violations, not to mention known Al Qaeda terrorist camps with Osama bin Laden right smack in the middle, and there they were invited to the U.S. so Unocal can get their oil. So what do we do after we topple the Taliban? Appoint Hamid Karzai as President of Afghanistan and Zalmay Khalilzad as U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan--both of whom have had extensive ties to Unocal prior to their appointment. So pardon me if people suspect that Afghanistan was primarily about oil, but it is clear that the U.S. was perfectly contented to deal with the Taliban prior to 9/11.

Or how about, prior to 9/11, watching news clips of Condoleezza Rice and Dick Cheney explicitly saying that Iraq has no stockpiles of WMDs and that we have them under control with the embargo? That has to be one of the funniest moments in the film, and it isn't as if these are ambiguous statements ballooned with Moore's narration. Nope...the statements are pretty damn explicit from them alone.

I think the most interesting thing about this film, if there is to be only one, is how the Bush Administration really does count on the disposability of the media and the general public's collectively short attention span. Moore's greatest strength in the film is the fact that he digs up explicit video clips that make any charge of "bias" pretty damn difficult to back up.

Melon
 
Interesting points Melon, and I haven't even seen the film. But on the general patina of the last four years, indeed some of us have longer memories than they count on.

Did you know that the big news websites like the (liberal? haha!) New York Times and CNN routinely edit their archived material, so that old stories don't say what they said last week? Up is down, right?
 
Okay here is the current list of outright deciets in Farenheit 9/11, it is not about irrelevant stuff Moores entire hypothesis about the UNOCAL pipeline being the cause for war in Afghanistan is false because UNOCAL pulled out of the CentGas deal in 1998 after the embassy bombings. It wasnt Bush that hosted the Taliban representives it was Clinton. The list goes on with the facts to counter the myth, hardly irrelevant if you ask me.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
 
A_Wanderer said:
Okay here is the current list of outright deciets in Farenheit 9/11, it is not about irrelevant stuff Moores entire hypothesis about the UNOCAL pipeline being the cause for war in Afghanistan is false because UNOCAL pulled out of the CentGas deal in 1998 after the embassy bombings. It wasnt Bush that hosted the Taliban representives it was Clinton. The list goes on with the facts to counter the myth, hardly irrelevant if you ask me.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

You do overlook this fact, though:

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm

Bush did cozy up to the Taliban, and this is probably worse, because he gave them a decent amount of money!

I didn't wish to say that UNOCAL was the cause of the war; that's one thing of Moore's I tend to believe to be a stretch. However, it did become clear that the U.S. has taken advantage of that since.

Melon
 
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I saw Farenheit 9/11 the day it came out and I do not have words to describe how poor, inaccurate and absurd this movie is.

Its unfortunate that most people seeing this film, ultra liberals, Bush Bashers and Moore worshipers, are not aware of the fact that it was F.D.R. who set up the strong ties between the United States and Saudi Arabia back in 1945. The Bin Ladin family has ties all over the United States and the world, not just the Bush family. BUT MOORE DOES NOT TELL YOU THIS in his so called documentary! This is typically why this movie is a load of shit. Moore has a political view point he wants to present, and he does so with the selective use of film and facts to present an image that is false.

Cheney and Rice never said that Saddam did not have WMD's. They were expressing the fact that the embargo and sanctions had been effective in preventing Saddam from building new WMD with the use of materials from outside of Iraq. Sanctions and the Embargo were under attack by LIBERALS who wanted to lift them. They never stated that the large US presence in the Persian Gulf was not needed or that Military force would not be needed to ultimately resolve Saddam's lack of co-operation with inspections and his failure to account for thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of mustard gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells.

Moore's Bias is in every second of this film! WHY? Because its a two hour film and he selected ever piece of film to express his absurd political views. Hopefully, Moore's pile of shit will mainly be seen by the ultra-liberals and Moore worshipers and Bush Bashers. Unfortunately those going to see the movie that are not knowledgable about much of the history and foreign policy in the film will come away with Moore's bullshit views on things.

The film is extremely offensive and disgusting in its one sided portrayal of the US Military and the rather dumb and suggestive use of film which suggest US troops were cheering after killing Iraqi childern or the opening scenes as the war was about to begin showing film of Iraqi childern playing during the day and then the large opening airstrike that happened at night in downtown Baghdad targeting military and government installations in Baghdad. The scenes are designed to push the idea that the US military purposely slaughtered thousands of childern. What Moore won't tell you is that the level of civilian losses that happened in Iraq is tiny compared to the level of bombing and fighting that occured. This is because of the training and sophistication of the US Military and their equipment. Two things I might add that Moore has been opposed to spending money on.

I'm also disgusted by Moore's attempts to exploit the pain and suffering of a family who have lost a loved one in order to push his political view and earn him a sizable pay check. If the family's soldier son had not been killed, Moore would not have used him in the film.

Moore's film never shows anything about the life saving and rebuilding that the US military has been doing every day in Iraq for the past 16 months.

I went into this movie knowing that I would not like a lot of things but I never anticipated though that the entire movie would be so poor. Most people on the left could have produced a far more credible movie. John Kerry will not comment at all on this movie and the Democrats are actually attempting to distance themselves from it.
 
STING2 said:
Its unfortunate that most people seeing this film, ultra liberals, Bush Bashers and Moore worshipers, are not aware of the fact that it was F.D.R. who set up the strong ties between the United States and Saudi Arabia back in 1945. The Bin Ladin family has ties all over the United States and the world, not just the Bush family. BUT MOORE DOES NOT TELL YOU THIS in his so called documentary! This is typically why this movie is a load of shit. Moore has a political view point he wants to present, and he does so with the selective use of film and facts to present an image that is false.

This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.

I'm also disgusted by Moore's attempts to exploit the pain and suffering of a family who have lost a loved one in order to push his political view and earn him a sizable pay check. If the family's soldier son had not been killed, Moore would not have used him in the film.

And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?

I went into this movie knowing that I would not like a lot of things but I never anticipated though that the entire movie would be so poor. Most people on the left could have produced a far more credible movie. John Kerry will not comment at all on this movie and the Democrats are actually attempting to distance themselves from it.

Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

Melon
 
melon said:


This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.



And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?



Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

Melon

Ah, you beat me to it...
 
melon said:


This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.



And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?



Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

Melon

Its not irrelevant because there are many people seeing the film and don't understand that. The House of Saud has strong ties with all kinds of families on both sides of the isle. Also, understand that the Bin Ladin family is not your typical American family of four people who go to Grandmother's at Christmas time and talk to Usama what he did over the past year. Bin Ladin has dozens, perhaps has many has a hundred siblings and half siblings and I'm willing to bet that many of them have not seen Osoma in decades or in fact have not met him at all. To be honest, Bill Clinton would have a better idea of where Osoma was than any family member living in the United States that has had no connection with Bin Ladin in over a decade.

The family was obviously flown out because of their "Name" and the fact that they had already been investigated extensively prior to 9/11, and having them here only presented a security problem in preventing them from being hurt because of their name. In case you forgot, 9/11 was not their first time Usuma committed a terrorist act. Usama Bin Ladin was on the USA's #1 target list long prior to the 9/11 and had already attacked the United States prior to 9/11. So once again, this is another Moore theory that crash and burns.



The GOP did not make a major motion picture film like Moore did. The GOP are no different than the democrats in making their case for public office. Both parties do not stoop to the level of Michael Moore to make that case though.


Melon,

Just about anything that the Democrats have done in this election season is far more credible than anything that Moore has done in this movie.
 
:lol: Why can't we all just get along?

It's obvious that people have predispositions about this movie and this argument is not going to change anybody's mind.

Either you like it because you hope it will help run Bush out of office or you don't like it because of its ultra liberal slant.

I'm just afraid that this movie really isn't as educational as political.
 
Seabird said:
Moore thinks this country is so bad, he should try living in one where they'd kill you for making an anti-government movie like that.

When did Moore say he didn't like this country? Obviously you haven't seen the movie. Not liking the administration doesn't equal not liking the country. When are people going to stop making this assumption? Bush isn't America...not even close.
 
Seabird said:
Moore thinks this country is so bad, he should try living in one where they'd kill you for making an anti-government movie like that.

See...I know what this implies. A "good American" should just shut up and take it. Of course, I laugh at this, because during the Clinton Administration, conservatives had a good old time knocking Clinton at every corner. There were "Impeach Clinton" bumper stickers back in 1993, so maybe Hillary's "vast right-wing conspiracy" isn't too far off. However, since that isn't considered "balanced" and thus completely meaningless, then it must not be true...

On the contrary, whether you agree or disagree with Moore's film and politics, it is obvious that Moore cares enough about America that he made this film! FYI, Bush and the GOP are *not* "America" and nor can they monopolize on what is "American." I can guarantee, though, that if Kerry wins this election, will conservatives be "patriotic" and support Kerry? Hell no...they've probably already printed the "Impeach Kerry" bumper stickers. And all I want to say to that is that if the GOP hates America that much, then why don't they live in a real "democratic" theocracy like Iran?

This can go both ways.

Melon
 
Well a "good" or "bad" American will not be shot of speaking his mind. Let me rephrase. What I meant was he didn't like the government. In some places you will be killed for criticizing your leaders. So if he thinks our LEADERS are so bad he should move to a country whose LEADERS will shoot you for criticizing them.
 
melon said:


On the contrary, whether you agree or disagree with Moore's film and politics, it is obvious that Moore cares enough about America that he made this film!
Melon


LOL

probably not
 
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