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Old 07-16-2004, 11:47 PM   #16
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Interesting points Melon, and I haven't even seen the film. But on the general patina of the last four years, indeed some of us have longer memories than they count on.

Did you know that the big news websites like the (liberal? haha!) New York Times and CNN routinely edit their archived material, so that old stories don't say what they said last week? Up is down, right?
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Old 07-17-2004, 01:19 AM   #17
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Okay here is the current list of outright deciets in Farenheit 9/11, it is not about irrelevant stuff Moores entire hypothesis about the UNOCAL pipeline being the cause for war in Afghanistan is false because UNOCAL pulled out of the CentGas deal in 1998 after the embassy bombings. It wasnt Bush that hosted the Taliban representives it was Clinton. The list goes on with the facts to counter the myth, hardly irrelevant if you ask me.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm
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Old 07-17-2004, 01:29 AM   #18
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No, that's what Pete's stash of child porn is for.
I never thought I would said this to you anitram,

but that was pretty low brow.



~ low brow jones.
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Old 07-17-2004, 07:15 AM   #19
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Okay here is the current list of outright deciets in Farenheit 9/11, it is not about irrelevant stuff Moores entire hypothesis about the UNOCAL pipeline being the cause for war in Afghanistan is false because UNOCAL pulled out of the CentGas deal in 1998 after the embassy bombings. It wasnt Bush that hosted the Taliban representives it was Clinton. The list goes on with the facts to counter the myth, hardly irrelevant if you ask me.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm
You do overlook this fact, though:

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcol...mns/052201.htm

Bush did cozy up to the Taliban, and this is probably worse, because he gave them a decent amount of money!

I didn't wish to say that UNOCAL was the cause of the war; that's one thing of Moore's I tend to believe to be a stretch. However, it did become clear that the U.S. has taken advantage of that since.

Melon
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Old 07-17-2004, 09:40 AM   #20
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Yeah Pete's a real tops bloke.
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:01 PM   #21
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I saw Farenheit 9/11 the day it came out and I do not have words to describe how poor, inaccurate and absurd this movie is.

Its unfortunate that most people seeing this film, ultra liberals, Bush Bashers and Moore worshipers, are not aware of the fact that it was F.D.R. who set up the strong ties between the United States and Saudi Arabia back in 1945. The Bin Ladin family has ties all over the United States and the world, not just the Bush family. BUT MOORE DOES NOT TELL YOU THIS in his so called documentary! This is typically why this movie is a load of shit. Moore has a political view point he wants to present, and he does so with the selective use of film and facts to present an image that is false.

Cheney and Rice never said that Saddam did not have WMD's. They were expressing the fact that the embargo and sanctions had been effective in preventing Saddam from building new WMD with the use of materials from outside of Iraq. Sanctions and the Embargo were under attack by LIBERALS who wanted to lift them. They never stated that the large US presence in the Persian Gulf was not needed or that Military force would not be needed to ultimately resolve Saddam's lack of co-operation with inspections and his failure to account for thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of mustard gas, and over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells.

Moore's Bias is in every second of this film! WHY? Because its a two hour film and he selected ever piece of film to express his absurd political views. Hopefully, Moore's pile of shit will mainly be seen by the ultra-liberals and Moore worshipers and Bush Bashers. Unfortunately those going to see the movie that are not knowledgable about much of the history and foreign policy in the film will come away with Moore's bullshit views on things.

The film is extremely offensive and disgusting in its one sided portrayal of the US Military and the rather dumb and suggestive use of film which suggest US troops were cheering after killing Iraqi childern or the opening scenes as the war was about to begin showing film of Iraqi childern playing during the day and then the large opening airstrike that happened at night in downtown Baghdad targeting military and government installations in Baghdad. The scenes are designed to push the idea that the US military purposely slaughtered thousands of childern. What Moore won't tell you is that the level of civilian losses that happened in Iraq is tiny compared to the level of bombing and fighting that occured. This is because of the training and sophistication of the US Military and their equipment. Two things I might add that Moore has been opposed to spending money on.

I'm also disgusted by Moore's attempts to exploit the pain and suffering of a family who have lost a loved one in order to push his political view and earn him a sizable pay check. If the family's soldier son had not been killed, Moore would not have used him in the film.

Moore's film never shows anything about the life saving and rebuilding that the US military has been doing every day in Iraq for the past 16 months.

I went into this movie knowing that I would not like a lot of things but I never anticipated though that the entire movie would be so poor. Most people on the left could have produced a far more credible movie. John Kerry will not comment at all on this movie and the Democrats are actually attempting to distance themselves from it.
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Old 07-17-2004, 04:24 PM   #22
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Originally posted by STING2
Its unfortunate that most people seeing this film, ultra liberals, Bush Bashers and Moore worshipers, are not aware of the fact that it was F.D.R. who set up the strong ties between the United States and Saudi Arabia back in 1945. The Bin Ladin family has ties all over the United States and the world, not just the Bush family. BUT MOORE DOES NOT TELL YOU THIS in his so called documentary! This is typically why this movie is a load of shit. Moore has a political view point he wants to present, and he does so with the selective use of film and facts to present an image that is false.
This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.

Quote:
I'm also disgusted by Moore's attempts to exploit the pain and suffering of a family who have lost a loved one in order to push his political view and earn him a sizable pay check. If the family's soldier son had not been killed, Moore would not have used him in the film.
And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?

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I went into this movie knowing that I would not like a lot of things but I never anticipated though that the entire movie would be so poor. Most people on the left could have produced a far more credible movie. John Kerry will not comment at all on this movie and the Democrats are actually attempting to distance themselves from it.
Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

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Old 07-17-2004, 04:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.



And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?



Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

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Ah, you beat me to it...
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Old 07-17-2004, 06:28 PM   #24
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Originally posted by melon


This is irrelevant. We weren't talking about strong ties between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. We're talking about specific strong ties between the House of Saud and the Bush family. In a criminal investigation, wouldn't you want to investigate family members as to whether they knew where Osama bin Laden was? So why, when the rest of America's airlines were grounded, was the family flown to Saudi Arabia? That's more than "strong ties" started from FDR.



And don't tell me that Bush and the GOP haven't exploited 9/11 to its fullest? Why else would the Republican National Convention be in New York City?



Well, all I will say is that this answer is subjective. "Credible" to you means "pro-GOP." And "balanced" is a loaded word that either means it slants Republican (as in FOX News' overtly biased definition of "balanced") or the issues are tackled so non-offensively as to mean absolutely nothing. In other words, it maintains the status quo.

Melon
Its not irrelevant because there are many people seeing the film and don't understand that. The House of Saud has strong ties with all kinds of families on both sides of the isle. Also, understand that the Bin Ladin family is not your typical American family of four people who go to Grandmother's at Christmas time and talk to Usama what he did over the past year. Bin Ladin has dozens, perhaps has many has a hundred siblings and half siblings and I'm willing to bet that many of them have not seen Osoma in decades or in fact have not met him at all. To be honest, Bill Clinton would have a better idea of where Osoma was than any family member living in the United States that has had no connection with Bin Ladin in over a decade.

The family was obviously flown out because of their "Name" and the fact that they had already been investigated extensively prior to 9/11, and having them here only presented a security problem in preventing them from being hurt because of their name. In case you forgot, 9/11 was not their first time Usuma committed a terrorist act. Usama Bin Ladin was on the USA's #1 target list long prior to the 9/11 and had already attacked the United States prior to 9/11. So once again, this is another Moore theory that crash and burns.



The GOP did not make a major motion picture film like Moore did. The GOP are no different than the democrats in making their case for public office. Both parties do not stoop to the level of Michael Moore to make that case though.


Melon,

Just about anything that the Democrats have done in this election season is far more credible than anything that Moore has done in this movie.
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Old 07-17-2004, 06:44 PM   #25
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Why can't we all just get along?

It's obvious that people have predispositions about this movie and this argument is not going to change anybody's mind.

Either you like it because you hope it will help run Bush out of office or you don't like it because of its ultra liberal slant.

I'm just afraid that this movie really isn't as educational as political.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:31 PM   #26
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Moore thinks this country is so bad, he should try living in one where they'd kill you for making an anti-government movie like that.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:36 PM   #27
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Moore thinks this country is so bad, he should try living in one where they'd kill you for making an anti-government movie like that.
When did Moore say he didn't like this country? Obviously you haven't seen the movie. Not liking the administration doesn't equal not liking the country. When are people going to stop making this assumption? Bush isn't America...not even close.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:36 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Seabird
Moore thinks this country is so bad, he should try living in one where they'd kill you for making an anti-government movie like that.
See...I know what this implies. A "good American" should just shut up and take it. Of course, I laugh at this, because during the Clinton Administration, conservatives had a good old time knocking Clinton at every corner. There were "Impeach Clinton" bumper stickers back in 1993, so maybe Hillary's "vast right-wing conspiracy" isn't too far off. However, since that isn't considered "balanced" and thus completely meaningless, then it must not be true...

On the contrary, whether you agree or disagree with Moore's film and politics, it is obvious that Moore cares enough about America that he made this film! FYI, Bush and the GOP are *not* "America" and nor can they monopolize on what is "American." I can guarantee, though, that if Kerry wins this election, will conservatives be "patriotic" and support Kerry? Hell no...they've probably already printed the "Impeach Kerry" bumper stickers. And all I want to say to that is that if the GOP hates America that much, then why don't they live in a real "democratic" theocracy like Iran?

This can go both ways.

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Old 07-17-2004, 11:23 PM   #29
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Well a "good" or "bad" American will not be shot of speaking his mind. Let me rephrase. What I meant was he didn't like the government. In some places you will be killed for criticizing your leaders. So if he thinks our LEADERS are so bad he should move to a country whose LEADERS will shoot you for criticizing them.
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Old 07-17-2004, 11:23 PM   #30
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Originally posted by melon


On the contrary, whether you agree or disagree with Moore's film and politics, it is obvious that Moore cares enough about America that he made this film!
Melon

LOL

probably not
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