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Old 07-03-2007, 11:32 PM   #166
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


That 40 years is also full of 40 years worth of propaganda that US citizens have been hearing from their politicians, pharma, and private insurers about the perils of socialized health care, and how it's a dismal failure. Moore is just now trying to dispel some of those myths.
I've lived under the NHS system in the UK for many years; first employer who got me a discount on private health care I jumped all over it. Will never go back if I can help it/afford it.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:06 AM   #167
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I have many problems with Michael Moore. While I find his documentaries to be funny, he gets too personal. Here is a man who has made butt loads of money from his various documentaries, yet do you see him helping the needy w/ it? He is a hypocrite.

In the movie, he totally promotes the Canadian health care system, yet anyone who knows it would tell you that it has huge faults. Yes they have cheap drugs, but you have to wait months due to the shortage of doctors. Imagine waiting 4 weeks for heart bypass or 8 weeks for an MRI. This socialized health care that they have is destroying the quality of it. The only good thing is being an American there, b/c they help you extremely fast.

In general, I have noticed (not specifically here) that people who are for the movie and this idea of universal health care go along with the idea just because they do not back the current US government. Please, really consider all of the dimensions, other than doing it just because you don't like Bush. If this were to occur everyone, rich and poor, would pay greatly in the amount of their paychecks. I love it when Bono says, "Thanks for spending your hard earned on a U2 show." Just think w/ the higher taxes that would be set forth from this health care, that we would have less to spend on the rock shows.

At the same time, we need to ask why health care costs is so high? Let me spell a little out for you. It begins w/ the doctors: if they didn't have to worry about patients suing them w/ huge lawsuits all the time, their insurance would go down, then our insurance could go down, etc. etc.

While our system has it faults, do you guys honestly think socializing health care would be better? There are so many alternate ideas that would be much more effective. It would be a lot higher taxes for all of us and the quality and competitiveness of it would decrease greatly. Look at Europe, you do not hear that much happening there regarding medical innovation. We need to keep a free market so new ideas and competitiveness can continue to flourish.

Michael Moore should not criticize health when he is fat as hell.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:20 AM   #168
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Originally posted by shart1780
Any thoughts on the articles?

They are not very good.


With a little effort
\or if one reads a decent daily newspaper - one can get the information




from your article - blasting Moore
\/


Quote:
The innuendo is greatest, of course, in Moore’s dealings with the matter of the departing Saudis flown out of the United States in the days after the September 11 terror attacks. Much has already been written about these flights, especially the film’s implication that figures with possible knowledge of the terrorist attacks were allowed to leave the country without adequate FBI screening—a notion that has been essentially rejected by the 9/11 commission. The 9/11 commission found that the FBI screened the Saudi passengers, ran their names through federal databases, interviewed 30 of them and asked many of them “detailed questions." “Nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country,” the commission stated. New information about a flight from Tampa, Florida late on Sept. 13 seems mostly a red herring: The flight didn’t take any Saudis out of the United States. It was a domestic flight to Lexington, Kentucky that took place after the Tampa airport had already reopened.

2 minute Fox news clip


Freedom of Information FBI documents

Quote:
September 14-19, 2001: Bin Laden Family Members, Saudi Royals Quietly Leave US
Edit event

Khalil bin Laden at the Orlando, Florida, airport, about to be flown out of the country in the days after 9/11.Khalil bin Laden at the Orlando, Florida, airport, about to be flown out of the country in the days after 9/11. [Source: Lions Gate Films]Following a secret flight inside the US that is in violation of a national private airplane flight ban, members of the bin Laden family and Saudi royalty quietly depart the US. The flights are only publicly acknowledged after all the Saudis have left. [Boston Globe, 9/21/2001; New York Times, 9/30/2001] About 140 Saudis, including around 24 members of the bin Laden family, are passengers in these flights. The identities of most of these passengers are not known. However, some of the passengers include:
bullet The son of the Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan. Sultan is sued in August 2002 for alleged complicity in the 9/11 plot. [Tampa Tribune, 10/5/2001] He is alleged to have contributed at least $6 million since 1994 to four charities that finance al-Qaeda. [Vanity Fair, 10/2003]
bullet Khalil bin Laden. He has been investigated by the Brazilian government for possible terrorist connections. [Vanity Fair, 10/2003]
bullet Abdullah bin Laden and Omar bin Laden, cousins of bin Laden. Abdullah was the US director of the Muslim charity World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY). The governments of India, Pakistan, Philippines, and Bosnia have all accused WAMY of funding terrorism. These two relatives were investigated by the FBI in 1996 (see February-September 11, 1996) in a case involving espionage, murder, and national security. Their case is reopened on September 19, right after they leave the country. [Vanity Fair, 10/2003] Remarkably, four of the 9/11 hijackers briefly live in the town of Falls Church, Virginia, three blocks from the WAMY office headed by Abdullah bin Laden. [BBC, 11/6/2001]
bullet Saleh Ibn Abdul Rahman Hussayen. He is a prominent Saudi official who is in the same hotel as three of the hijackers the night before 9/11. He leaves on one of the first flights to Saudi Arabia before the FBI can properly interview him about this. [Washington Post, 10/2/2003]
bullet Akberali Moawalla. A Pakistani and business partner of Osama’s brother Yeslam bin Laden. In 2000, a transfer of over $250 million was made from a bank account belonging jointly to Moawalla and Osama bin Laden.(see 2000). [Washington Post, 7/22/2004]
There is a later dispute regarding how thoroughly the Saudis are interviewed before they leave and who approves the flights. Counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke says he agrees to the flights after the FBI assures him none of those on board has connections to terrorism and that it is “a conscious decision with complete review at the highest levels of the State Department and the FBI and the White House.” [US Congress, 9/3/2003]

it seems your article writers are the ones that are misleading / more than Moore
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:25 AM   #169
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Those are good points, but what about the countless other matters the articles accuse Moore of twisting, like the Congessmen's sons in Iraq and the unlawful editing of newspaper documents?

There are obvious faults in the movie that can't be denied.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:34 AM   #170
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Most importantly Moore doesn't even mention the reality side of his "so called" health care phenomenon of ideas. In reality, health care involves about a sixth of our national economy, hundreds of government programs, thousands of private insurance plans and hundreds of thousands of health care workers. In his movie he doesn't mention this, he just gives these main ideas: Americans are exploited, insurance companies are bad, politicians are ineffective.

Great ideas Mr. Moore
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:37 AM   #171
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^Have you seen the movie?
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:39 AM   #172
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
^Have you seen the movie?
yes
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:44 AM   #173
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yes
Interesting, and you see no problems with the current setup?
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:45 AM   #174
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the current health care system? of course i do. to moore's extent, no. i don't believe in universal health care.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:46 AM   #175
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Originally posted by struckpx
the current health care system? of course i do. to moore's extent, no. i don't believe in universal health care.
So what's your solution?
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:58 AM   #176
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Originally posted by shart1780
Those are good points, but what about the countless other matters the articles accuse Moore of twisting, like the Congessmen's sons in Iraq and the unlawful editing of newspaper documents?

There are obvious faults in the movie that can't be denied.
I think I started this thread because “Sicko” was being perceived as a departure from his previous style of film making.

If I wrote “Moore’s Sicko is a brilliant and uplifting film”. Would you have responded the same way?

I watched “Columbine” on cable and enjoyed it. I did have some problems with the way he played with the numbers. But I do believe there is a correlation between the numbers of guns in the public’s hands and gun deaths. I own quite a few guns myself.. btw

There are a high number of guns in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I don’t believe it is making anyone in those two countries any safer.

I can not really address Fahrenheit 911. I started to watch it at the movies but I walked out on it. So I can not respond about the Congressman's son. etc.

I had so immersed myself in the whole Iraq debacle that I had seen and read all of the source materials he was using. I do think he did bend and manipulate “facts” for dramatic effect. It did kind of annoy me.

The beginning of ‘Sicko” was the weakest part for me. But then it got better so I did not walk out.

“But this time around, the controversial documentarian seems to be letting the subject matter do the talking, and in the process shows a new maturity.”

I think this film is better than his previous work, you may want to check it out.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:50 AM   #177
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Yeah I might check it out. On a lot of points I do actually agree with Moore, it looks like especially from Sicko. But movies like Fahrenheit and Columbine just annoyed me so much. I can admit they were well made and entertaining (well, to a lot of people), but I was just so annoyed by the constant sympathy plays and editing tricks it drove me crazy.

The way he dealt with Heston throughout 9/11 was so deciteful it's not even funny. And then laying the picture of the dead girl in front of Heston's house. Pathetic. Does he think our minds are that simple and easily swayed? Many Moore fans I've talked to go on about how this interview shows how racist Heston is, when in reality he was a huge figure in civil rights for blacks in the 60s. All that stuff just seems so, so ridiculous to me. It's like he's trying to play the pudgy little innocent kid who's trying to get the big bad guys to admit their wrongs and break down and ask for forgiveness right there. His attitude sickens me and makes me laugh at the same time. I can't take one bit of it seriously.

Fahrenheit was even worse. If you just watch the movie it doesn't seem nearly as bad (although I could still barely stand it), but when you actually read the stories behind the making of the film, and then watch the finished cut, it's all so stupid. It's completely unreliable. It baffles me how anyone could take this tripe seriously. Oh wait, I know why. Because they so desperately want to believe what Moore is saying.

The guy is a complete schmuck and I can't stand him at all. Sicko may be a lot better. I know I'll see it eventually, and hopefully change my opinion of Moore a bit.

Here's a Columbine article. Look at the editing for the Hston speeches. It's amazing what this guy get away with. I'm suprised he hasn't been sued for this junk.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:35 AM   #178
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So what's your solution?
here's a question for you, who i am getting the feeling supports government run health care idea:

think about other government agencies, such as the post office and how long you had to wait in line there, or maybe at the DOL waiting for a new drivers license, or the time it took after Katrina. Is this the type of health coverage you want? This is what will happen w/ universal health care? There will be more suffering, deaths, and of course, higher costs.

Throughout the movie he talks about HMOs. Well, the use of those have decreased drastically b/c they were rejected by employers and patients, and proves that the free market system works, thanks to congressional lobbying.

Regarding your question, this could help:
- require the costs of all healthcare services to be published publicly, so there is competition for insurance.
- increase financial grants and incentives.

those are the big ones that i can think of.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:59 AM   #179
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Originally posted by shart1780

Sicko may be a lot better. I know I'll see it eventually, and hopefully change my opinion of Moore a bit.
I'm glad you're at least open to that. I think it's great that Moore heard the criticism of his previous films and has apparently done it differently this time. That's all you can really ask of a person, and it seems ridiculous to keep hating him for what's already done. Just move on with where he is now. Doesn't mean you have to like him or Sicko, but at least respect the fact that he got that bending the truth to make bigger (and valid, IMO) points or just to be entertaining maybe isn't what people want in a documentary. The Bush administration has had many opportunities to learn from people's criticisms but sadly has been too arrogant to listen and change.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:06 AM   #180
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Originally posted by struckpx


here's a question for you, who i am getting the feeling supports government run health care idea:

think about other government agencies, such as the post office and how long you had to wait in line there, or maybe at the DOL waiting for a new drivers license, or the time it took after Katrina. Is this the type of health coverage you want? This is what will happen w/ universal health care? -
This is a large misconception: that there is no waiting in line when you have privatized healthcare. According to a report published by the CID a couple of years ago, the average wait for a mammogram in New York was a stunning 6 weeks. And that was in both private and public facilities. There are similar wait times for elective surgeries and other non-life saving procedures. I guess the lobby in the US managed to convince the public that you don't wait, you just waltz into the hospital and get services, while the rest of the world dies in lines. What a terrible mischaracterization.
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