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Old 04-16-2004, 12:43 AM   #526
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Start a new congregation with her if the council sends her away.
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:21 AM   #527
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
No. "Religion", as you call it, perpetuates a purpose for life and if man wants to stray from his nature than it's a "religious" authority's position to call them upon it.

I don't think gay marriage is right. Homosexuality is an aberration.
In spite of all scientific and logical evidence to the contrary, you hold the latter belief set for no other reason than that's what you've been told unquestioningly. You've merely proved my point with religion.

Quote:
However, I do happen to agree with the thought that if Gay Marriage does not harm anyone (and it doesn't) then for harmony's sake let them carry it on.

It's like abortion, if you don't like it then don't get one.
Well, at least you're able to do this...

Melon
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:42 PM   #528
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
No. "Religion", as you call it, perpetuates a purpose for life and if man wants to stray from his nature than it's a "religious" authority's position to call them upon it.
Why? Just because a religion believes that something is wrong, doesn't automatically mean it is. Besides that, some religions do not have a problem with homosexuality whatsoever. So what do we say about them?

Also, Dread, that's cool that she's willing to admit that to her church. I hope that she isn't sent away, either. Good luck to her.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brown Eyed Boy
I don't think gay marriage is right. Homosexuality is an aberration.
But why? I still don't understand what it is about homosexuality that bothers people so much? You say in the next part that homosexuality harms nobody, and you're right about that, so I just fail to understand what exactly your problem is with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brown Eyed Boy
However, I do happen to agree with the thought that if Gay Marriage does not harm anyone (and it doesn't) then for harmony's sake let them carry it on.

It's like abortion, if you don't like it then don't get one.
This part I agree with.

Angela
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:56 PM   #529
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I am so over this thread.

Now, back to my Queer as Folk marathon.
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Old 04-16-2004, 05:14 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
I am so over this thread.

Now, back to my Queer as Folk marathon.


Queer as Folk (The British version...I've never seen the US version. )
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Old 04-20-2004, 11:01 AM   #531
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This is just stupid

Effort to remove pro-gay marriage judges

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BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- A group that opposes gay marriage has enlisted the help of a state legislator in a long-shot attempt to remove the four justices of the state's high court who ruled that banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.

Democratic state Rep. Emile J. Goguen told The Boston Globe that he planned to file legislation to oust the justices on Tuesday, even though he is the measure's only sponsor.
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Old 04-20-2004, 01:43 PM   #532
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Old 04-20-2004, 03:14 PM   #533
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http://www.soulforce.org/pressreleases/pr042103.shtml

MINISTER IN LIMBO AFTER BEING FOUND GUILTY BY PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH FOR REFUSING TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST GAY AND LESBIANS IN MARRIAGE

Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken to be rebuked for marriage, found not guilty of ordination violation on technicality

Cincinnati, April 21, 2003) - Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken, minister of Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church (USA), was found guilty today of violating the PCUSA Constitution, which requires ministers to discriminate against gays and lesbians in marriage. He will be rebuked for his actions.



The Permanent Judicial Council of the Cincinnati Presbytery, which heard the charges against Rev. Van Kuiken, found him guilty of violating the PCUSA constitution's prohibition against marrying same-gender couples, but not guilty of violating the ordination standard of fidelity in marriage/chastity in singleness, due to a technicality. Rev. Van Kuiken preformed marriage ceremonies and ordained as elders and deacons sexually active gays and lesbians.



“This is a sad day for the Presbyterian Church,” declared Rev. Van Kuiken. “The PJC has decided that my actions—performing ceremonies for same-sex couples that are Christian marriages or their equivalent—are a violation of our church law.”



Rev. Van Kuiken says the rebuke is somewhat encouraging as the penalty could have been more serious but leaves him in limbo, as he will continue to perform marriages for couples regardless of sexual orientation. He plans to appeal the guilty verdict because he believes that he decision of the PJC is theologically wrong and contrary to Scripture.



“The Presbyterian Church constitution is every bit in conflict with the Holy Scriptures today as it was when it mandated the subjugation of women and people of color, and supported slavery,” said Rev. Van Kuiken. “I believe that my refusal to be complicit in committing spiritual violence and my resolve to challenge the unjust laws that subjugate gays and lesbians, demonstrates the utmost regard for the Scriptures and for the Presbyterian Church.”



A complaint was filed against Rev. Van Kuiken last year because he publicly stated that he will not abide by the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) constitution's ordination standard of fidelity in marriage/chastity in singleness, or the denomination's prohibition against marrying same-gender couples. An anti-gay member of the PCUSA has filed over twenty complaints against Presbyterians for these reasons all over the country. These are the first complaints to result in a trial.



“Rev. Van Kuiken is carrying on the work of people like Martin Luther King, who stated that one who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty,” said Rev. Mel White, director and founder of Soulforce, Inc. “We applaud his courage, his commitment to justice and his willingness to stand firm and stand tall when faced with tremendous pressure to compromise his integrity and conform to church politics. We are glad that he will continue to work for justice.”



Soulforce, a national interfaith organization committed to ending spiritual violence perpetuated by religious policies and teachings against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people organized press conference and vigil during the trial April 8 which included dozens of supportive clergy and over one hundred people from Cincinnati and places as far away as Seattle and Philadelphia.
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Old 04-20-2004, 03:15 PM   #534
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And, in an ironic twist, I read today that a MA Republican representative is going to formally propose separating civil and religious marriage by calling the religious, non-legal process "marriage," and the civil, legal process a different name, possibly "civil unions."

This is the one that, to me, makes the most sense. I can understand if religions or whomever has an objection to gay marriage, and, likewise, religions won't have to recognize marriages between non-Christians or, in the case of the Vatican, non-Catholics. The state will just generate "civil unions" that have all the legal rights or whatever and "marriage" can remain a religious entity that carries no legal rights whatsoever.

Melon
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Old 04-20-2004, 03:17 PM   #535
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Re: This is just stupid

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Effort to remove pro-gay marriage judges

He'll lose. He's a fringe representative that likely will amount to nothing.

Melon
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Old 04-20-2004, 03:47 PM   #536
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“The Presbyterian Church constitution is every bit in conflict with the Holy Scriptures today as it was when it mandated the subjugation of women and people of color, and supported slavery,” said Rev. Van Kuiken. “I believe that my refusal to be complicit in committing spiritual violence and my resolve to challenge the unjust laws that subjugate gays and lesbians, demonstrates the utmost regard for the Scriptures and for the Presbyterian Church.”
I'm glad some people get it...
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:20 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken, minister of Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church (USA), was found guilty today of violating the PCUSA Constitution, which requires ministers to discriminate against gays and lesbians in marriage.
Required. He's required by that constitution to discriminate. How disturbing is that?

I'm glad he's not, though.

Angela
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:40 PM   #538
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Required. He's required by that constitution to discriminate. How disturbing is that?
That's the wording of soulforce.org, not the Presbyterian Constitution. But I'm not sure soulforce.org is interested in church polity.
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:04 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
That's the wording of soulforce.org, not the Presbyterian Constitution. But I'm not sure soulforce.org is interested in church polity.
So the Presbyterian Constitution doesn't prohibit gay marriage? Or it does, but it doesn't call it discrimination?
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:13 PM   #540
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Even after reading the more than 500 replies to this thread including all the quoted articles, I still haven't seen a convincing secular reason for banning gay marriages. Frankly I find the notion that gay marriages would somehow break down marriage as an institution insulting.
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