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Old 03-04-2004, 04:50 PM   #376
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Ouizy, Love ya MAN!
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Old 03-04-2004, 04:55 PM   #377
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am willing to bet my salvation on the fact that someone who lives a decent life, helping others ect.....Has a wonderful place in the house of God. Sorry, there are many rooms in my father's house and no one on this planet is the doorman.
.

Well said to the others out there-Mrs. Edge, FizzingWhizzbees, ouizy, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
It reminds me of a very old cartoon I have pinned to my bulletin board: Two guys are standing outside a church which displays a sign saying, "HOMOSEXUALS! COME IN AND BE TURNED INTO A RIGHT-WING RELIGIOUS ZEALOT!!!"

The one guy turns to the other and says, "I'm afraid the cure is worse than the condition."
LOL.

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Old 03-04-2004, 05:07 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
there are many rooms in my father's house and no one on this planet is the doorman.
On that I agree

Quote:
I am willing to bet my salvation on the fact that someone who lives a decent life, helping others ect.....Has a wonderful place in the house of God.
What's your definition of decent? Just curious (although I am envisioning another thread starting)...
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:10 PM   #379
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


How about instead of curing someone's perfectly natural sexuality, we cure the bigotry of a society which would make them feel ashamed of it?
Not sure if I've said it in this thread, but I know I've said somewhere that I find the treatment homosexuals recieve to be the far greater sin as that is one of hate. The conduct of many Christians in this matter has shamed me to no end. The parents who abandon their children over this make me sick. The fact that even here in Canada, if you are a gay and are born outside of the GTA or other large urban areas like Vancouver, Montreal, etc. the chances of you being able to stay in your home town are about nil is disgraceful. Gays and lesbians and all people who don't fit into the norms of human sexuality are still our brothers and sisters.

Though I personally find the whole natural argument to be useless. Plenty of things are natural depending on how you define the term. Down's Syndrome is perfectly natural, manic depression is also natural, yet we try to treat those conditions. Homosexuality is different in that it doesn't dramatically (or even noticably)affect a person's ability to function in society, but to imply it is any more natural than those conditions is erroneous. Also describing it as normal is erronious, if you stick to the strict meaning of normal. As in conforming to a norm. The norm for sexual life on this planet is heterosexuality. Homosexuality in various forms is a common situation in any number of species, but it is not the norm. It is an abberation and that's a fact. That term doesn't describe it as somethign bad merely something different from the norm. The first statement of it being natural is meaningless and the second is in error.
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:17 PM   #380
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Originally posted by Blacksword
Not sure if I've said it in this thread, but I know I've said somewhere that I find the treatment homosexuals recieve to be the far greater sin as that is one of hate. The conduct of many Christians in this matter has shamed me to no end. The parents who abandon their children over this make me sick. The fact that even here in Canada, if you are a gay and are born outside of the GTA or other large urban areas like Vancouver, Montreal, etc. the chances of you being able to stay in your home town are about nil is disgraceful. Gays and lesbians and all people who don't fit into the norms of human sexuality are still our brothers and sisters.
Exactly. In a debate I had on this issue with somebody, they actually said that if they found out their child was gay, they would disown them. And that just floored me. I just can't understand how people can be that cruel. That is not what Jesus would've done. Not at all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword
Though I personally find the whole natural argument to be useless. Plenty of things are natural depending on how you define the term. Down's Syndrome is perfectly natural, manic depression is also natural, yet we try to treat those conditions. Homosexuality is different in that it doesn't dramatically (or even noticably)affect a person's ability to function in society, but to imply it is any more natural than those conditions is erroneous. Also describing it as normal is erronious, if you stick to the strict meaning of normal. As in conforming to a norm. The norm for sexual life on this planet is heterosexuality. Homosexuality in various forms is a common situation in any number of species, but it is not the norm. It is an abberation and that's a fact. That term doesn't describe it as somethign bad merely something different from the norm. The first statement of it being natural is meaningless and the second is in error.
Another interesting point regarding the whole "natural/unnatural" thing that somebody made once-if people who use this argument in regards to homosexuality really want life to be natural, then they can go live in the wild without any of the conviences of modern life. I mean, we're the only species who uses computers or cell phones or televisions or whatnot-that's not exactly "natural", is it? Especially when you consider that the cavemen didn't have those luxuries.

We all do things that may not be considered "natural", that go against the norm. That doesn't automatically mean that it's wrong.

Angela
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:35 PM   #381
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Originally posted by Blacksword
I find the treatment homosexuals recieve to be the far greater sin as that is one of hate.
You touch on part of the problem here. Too many try to rank sins or point to homosexuality as a worse sin than their own. Everyone should look in the mirror for that log first.
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:35 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword
Though I personally find the whole natural argument to be useless. Plenty of things are natural depending on how you define the term. Down's Syndrome is perfectly natural, manic depression is also natural, yet we try to treat those conditions.
How is it *any* of your right to decide that either of these groups are implicitly "deficient" and thus need "treatment"? First off, you can't treat Down's Syndrome. It exists, and there's nothing that can be done.

You know what is natural? Left-handedness. And for centuries, it was looked at negatively. How *dare* people try and use their left hand in a right-handed world? And that's the equivalent I see to being gay--a left hand. If it weren't for straight society's obsessive compulsiveness on their self-defined standards of "perfection," then they'd realize that it means absolutely nothing to them.

Maybe you all need "treatment" instead.

Melon
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Old 03-04-2004, 05:40 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
You touch on part of the problem here. Too many try to rank sins or point to homosexuality as a worse sin than their own. Everyone should look in the mirror for that log first.
And, yet, I don't see a push for constitutional amendments to ban these other "sins." If they were truly interested in "defending marriage," then there should be a constitutional ban on divorce. And if marriage were really about "having children," then all "marriages" should be forced to be nullified if they don't produce a child within a year.

Clearly, this statement is nothing more than window-dressing amongst the "Christian" community. They certainly *have* defined a hierarchy of "sin," and, guess what? Since they can't beat up on women or non-whites anymore, it's now time for their last whipping post: gays.

Well, guess what? We all see through it, and that makes "Christianity" look all the more hypocritical and fanatical.

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Old 03-04-2004, 06:16 PM   #384
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One of the best books I read in college was Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalsim by Bishop Spong of the Episcopal Church.

[Q]"The war that went on between what he desired with his mind and what he desired with his body, his drivenness to a legalistic religion of control, his fear when that system was threatened, his attitude toward women, his refusal to seek marriage as an outlet for his passion -- nothing else accounts for this data as well as the possibility that Paul was gay.

To me it is a beautiful idea that a homosexual male, scorned then as well as now, living with both the self-judgment and the social judgments that a fearful society has so often and unknowingly pronounced upon the very being of some of its citizens, could nonetheless, not in spite of this but because of this, be the one who would define grace for the Christian people. Grace was the love of God, an unconditional love, that loved Paul just as he was. A rigidly controlled gay male, I believe, taught the Christian church what the love of God means and what, therefore, Christ means as God's agent. Finally, it was a gay male, tortured and rejected, who came to understand what resurrection means as God's vindicating act."[/Q]
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Old 03-04-2004, 06:24 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
One of the best books I read in college was Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalsim by Bishop Spong of the Episcopal Church.
That is a GREAT book. It's been a couple of years since I read it. I should pick it up again.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:16 PM   #386
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You touch on part of the problem here. Too many try to rank sins or point to homosexuality as a worse sin than their own. Everyone should look in the mirror for that log first.
You touch on another part of the problem: treating homosexuality as a sin at all.
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Old 03-04-2004, 07:19 PM   #387
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[Q]Out of Homosexuality: A Pastor's Story
By John Howard as told to Bob Davies
"God, please help me," was my frequent prayer. It felt like a giant magnet pulled me into the wrong places. I felt angry and guilty but I couldn't stop.
Growing up, I was always the smallest kid in my class, and was very self-conscious about it. Mom made it worse by always begging me to eat bigger meals.
"John, look at all these people staring at me," she whispered to me one day on the bus. "They're wondering why I don't feed you more."

When I was 13, my father got a job transfer from Calgary, Alberta to Thunder Bay, Ontario. That was a rough transition for me. I was just starting high school, and it was frightening.

The first day in my new school, a guy named Bill invited me to his church. I'd gone to Sunday School sporadically, and knew it would be a good place to find some new friends. So I started going every week with him to the United Church just down the hill from our school.

Later, in our Grade 10 Sunday School class, we were invited to a special six-week series of classes, to be followed by a special confirmation service for those who wanted to join the church.

I'll never forget the sermon that Sunday morning, as I sat in the front pew with my class. "You're not joining a club," the minister told us. "What you're really doing is giving your lives to Jesus Christ, asking Him to come in and take control." I'd never heard that before.

"God," I prayed, "if You're really there, I invite You to come into my life. Please forgive me for my sins, and help me become the person You want me to be."

As I prayed, something happened. Deep inside came an assurance that God was real, and I was overwhelmed with the feeling of being loved. I knew for sure that God loved me, little John Howard. It was an amazing experience. After that service in April, 1963, I went to every possible church activity. I had a new hunger to read the Bible and pray. Church was suddenly a very important part of my life.

But at the same time, something else was happening, something hidden and troubling. As a young teen, I discovered a pile of old sporting magazines down in the basement. Flipping the pages, I was drawn to the Charles Atlas ads. Looking at the muscular body-builders, I thought: Now that's what a real man looks like. I wish I could look like that.

I found those photos sexually arousing, and started masturbating while looking at them. Later, I accidentally discovered another magazine in a corner store, filled with handsome men in swim suits and jock straps in seductive poses. I felt fascinated and turned on. Somehow I knew these feelings were wrong and I felt guilty for looking, and yet the sexual excitement was strong and powerful.

Thus, an inner conflict began that would continue for almost 20 years. On the one hand I prayed that God would take away these feelings, while on the other I continued to find them enjoyable. I was too ashamed to tell anyone else what was happening inside me.

I had a lot of girlfriends during high school and felt very comfortable around them. Despite the increasing sexual desire for other guys, I assumed I'd eventually get married.

Then through school and church I met a girl named Vicki and we started dating. We married when we were both 21, but the conflict inside of me only increased. Often I'd have homosexual fantasies while I was being intimate with my wife, and secretly sought out magazines and books to feed my homosexual desires.

By this time, I was in seminary, training for the ministry. Vicki and I had our first daughter in 1972, then adopted a son. Later we had another girl. I deeply loved my wife and children, but the lustful thoughts were out of control. Although I didn't want to lose my family, I felt an increasing desire to act out my homosexual feelings, to see if reality was the same as fantasy.

In the summer of 1974 on my way home from a conference, I was delayed in Winnipeg. Instead of staying with friends, I went to a hostel which had the reputation for homosexual activity.

Another man approached me that night. After he left my room, I headed for the showers. I felt so guilty and dirty and also afraid that I might have caught some kind of venereal disease.

Later that night, I knelt beside the bed and prayed. "God, I'm so sorry. Please forgive me for this awful sin. I promise I'll never do it again. And please take away these wrong feelings."

By this time, I was on staff at Collier Street United Church in Barrie, Ontario. I had to travel quite often to Toronto, running errands and doing hospital visitation. On these trips I had trouble staying out of the adult bookstores.

"God, please help me," was my frequent prayer on the drive into Toronto. But once I got there, it felt like a giant magnet pulled me into the wrong places. I'd browse through the gay magazines and memorize the pictures, later fantasizing about what I'd seen. I felt angry and guilty but I couldn't stop.

Then I started driving past cruising areas and reading graffiti on bathroom walls. I knew if this behavior continued, I'd get drawn into homosexual activity again. Eventually, I'd get caught and lose my job and family.

Meanwhile at church, I was meeting regularly with ten small group leaders. Discussing problems in their groups as well as any personal issues, we got to know one another really well.

After one of these meetings, two of the women approached me. "John, we can sense you're really struggling with something," they said. "If you ever want to talk, we want you to know we're here for you."

I brushed them off. "Oh, no, everything's fine. Thanks a lot." Inside, I was scared. Other people can tell I have a problem, I thought.

During the next trip to Toronto, I ended up in an adult bookstore again. On the drive home, God spoke to me: "John, I've provided these people for you to talk with." I called one of the ladies that night and said I needed to meet with them.

The following Friday, I talked to them all afternoon, pouring out my soul. They loved and accepted me, often crying with me as we shared together. We committed ourselves to meeting every two weeks. During the next year, the Lord worked in my life in a beautiful way.

At each meeting, we asked God to reveal what needed to be discussed, then waited for Him to reveal an incident or feeling to talk and pray about. Gradually we uncovered the roots of my behavior and God began the process of restoration in my life.

These women became my support group. When I was going to Toronto, I could call them up and ask for prayer. That accountability made a real difference. The addiction to pornography and masturbation began to wane.

God showed me these sinful habits were unhealthy ways I dealt with negative emotions: stress, loneliness, anger, hurt feelings. He also helped me accept my body, to realize that it was His gift to me, not something to be ashamed of.

After a few months, I knew my wife had to know what was going on. One night before we went to bed, I finally confessed to her my struggles with homosexuality.

Vicki was hurt that I'd kept this part of me from her for so many years, but she supported my search for healing. And, although she was dedicated to our marriage, she knew any overt homosexual activity was adultery. If I chose that behavior, she'd leave me. Knowing her limits was added motivation for me to never fall again.

The healing process continued over the months. I gradually told more people what I was dealing with, and they were very supportive. My senior pastor discovered a book with Love In Action's address in the back. I wrote for materials and gobbled up the information.

In the spring of 1985, I attended a conference in Vancouver, Canada on the healing of homosexuality. It was so encouraging to meet and share with other ex-gays. "God," I prayed that week, "if you want me to start a ministry to homosexuals, I'm willing."

Then one morning on the news, I heard about the arrest of a man who'd been a Sunday School teacher in a United Church in another city. He had been caught in homosexual activity. After saying good-bye to his wife and children, he'd gone out and killed himself.

I wept, knowing that, except for God's grace, that could have been me. I also knew there were so many people struggling with homosexuality who had never heard there was hope for change.

"God," I prayed, "if going public with my story can help prevent that kind of tragedy in one person's life, I'm willing to do it."

So, in January 1986, I started an ex-gay support group that is still going strong. It's been exciting to see the changes that God has brought about in the lives of the people who have come.

God has continued to work in my marriage. Now I really enjoy the physical part of my relationship with Vicki, no longer needing homosexual fantasies for stimulation.

Compared to five years ago, my struggles with homosexual lust are virtually gone. I'm not afraid of temptation when it comes; I've learned how to successfully deal with it.

For so many years I struggled to deal with my homosexuality between just me and the Lord. Then I discovered that all along He had wanted to bring me healing by means of His people. I praise God that He led me to two loving Christians who were willing to be His instruments of healing and change. And so it is true, as James wrote: "Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." (James 5:16) Praise God!

Copyright 1988 by Bob Davies.[/Q]
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:14 PM   #388
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Why do you paste this crap sometimes?

What these "ex-gay ministries" forget to mention is that they even admit only a "33% success rate," while others put that number far lower. Quackery. Utter quackery. It just shows the depths that fundamentalist Christianity will sink to just to never have to say "I was wrong."

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Old 03-04-2004, 10:18 PM   #389
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Why do you paste this crap sometimes?

What these "ex-gay ministries" forget to mention is that they even admit only a "33% success rate," while others put that number far lower. Quackery. Utter quackery. It just shows the depths that fundamentalist Christianity will sink to just to never have to say "I was wrong."

Melon
Was the post before crap too....

or not?

Just curious....

Maybe I thought both would spur some debate....
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:35 PM   #390
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Was the post before crap too....
No. The first post is interesting, although I don't know how to respond to it yet.

The latter is so indescribably offensive to me and everyone I know, mainly because it implies that homosexuals are automatically lacking in faith, and that it is impossible to be happy, stable, and homosexual. I guarantee that the latter is possible; homophobia is the problem.

It is so offensive that I generally refuse to dignify it with an answer, and that's why I wish you'd never have posted it.

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