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Old 02-19-2004, 01:08 PM   #301
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I agree. So far, people have implied that my religious beliefs are bullshit and they make me discriminating and homophobic...I think those are some pretty harsh conclusions made by people who've never met me.
Yet some here have no problem telling people their sexuallity is wrong, I think that's a pretty harsh conlusion too.
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Old 02-19-2004, 01:28 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Yet some here have no problem telling people their sexuallity is wrong, I think that's a pretty harsh conlusion too.


So it's a personal attack if you say that religious beliefs aren't a good basis for a law, but if you say there's something wrong with someone because they're gay that's just fine.
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:00 PM   #303
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Yet some here have no problem telling people their sexuallity is wrong, I think that's a pretty harsh conlusion too.
.

Ditto what FizzingWhizzbees has said, too.

I will be as respectful as possible in these debates, will respect that some people have their views based with their religion, and that's fine, whatever.

But if I do come off as kind of rude or whatever, it's more out of frustration than anything else. If someone isn't a fan of homosexual marriage, fine. I don't understand why, even religion-wise, it still kinda confuses me, because the Bible DOES talk about acceptance and love and all that stuff. But that's their opinion, and they're entitled to it.

But for people to flat out refuse to allow these people to live their lives, even if they personally don't agree with the choice...sorry, but that bugs me. If it isn't hurting anybody else, if a person isn't being forced into it, is it really any of their business?

Like pointed out in this thread, I have homosexual friends who are so tired of all the stuff surrounding this issue. All they want is to be seen as equals. One girl is living over in Europe right now, and has been keeping up with the stuff going on here in the States, 'cause she's moving back here soon with her family. And she's said that she's read so many anti-gay marriage articles that have left her angry and close to tears. I feel so bad for her. She's terrified to come out to her own parents as well-they're very religious and would most likely disown her if they found out she was a lesbian. And then she has to deal with what other anti-gay marriage people say day in and day out.

So I just get frustrated sometimes. That's all.

Angela
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:28 PM   #304
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I'm the first to admit that I am not very tolerant of people who are against gay marriage and I can be a bit harsh about it, although I hope I haven't been so here. I live in a small city of about 75,000 people that has the largest gay and lesbian population per capita of any city in the country next to San Francisco. People are so totally cool about it here that I am actually quite shocked when I travel to other places and realize that the rest of the country isn't quite as progressive. So my attitude towards any kind of homophobic behavior or attitude is pretty much "get over it". I don't have the time or patience with something that to me seems like holding on to the past. Gay marriages will be a legal reality in this country, I am certain of it.
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:32 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think this discussion is going nowhere.
I have a new question

So, if Bush's plan works and he changes the constitution to define marriage a being between a man and a woman, what will happen to the gay couples already married in Massachusets (sp)?
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:37 PM   #306
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Originally posted by DrTeeth


I have a new question

So, if Bush's plan works and he changes the constitution to define marriage a being between a man and a woman, what will happen to the gay couples already married in Massachusets (sp)?
Better question....no one has been married yet in Massachusetts. What happens in San Fransisco where they are violating state law? Are they trying to set up a Supreme Court Challenge?
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:44 PM   #307
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Really, what about all the people on tv I saw getting married, was that in San Fransisco? What's keeping the gays in Massachusetts?
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Old 02-19-2004, 02:52 PM   #308
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
she's read so many anti-gay marriage articles that have left her angry and close to tears....And then she has to deal with what other anti-gay marriage people say day in and day out.
Exactly. I don't think people realise just how hurtful some of the anti-gay marriage comments can be. When you hear comments like "gay relationships aren't natural because they can't produce children" it's hurtful. The idea that gay people are trying to "destroy" marriage is hurtful when you know that all gay people actually want is the right to marry in the same way straight people have the right to marry. So many (note: many not all) people who oppose gay marriage are also extremely homophobic, making comments describing gay people as "perverted" or "deviant." I wish people would give a little more thought to the sort of insults and abuse that many gay people put up with on a day-to-day basis before they start complaining about people being "intolerant" of prejudice.
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:09 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Exactly. I don't think people realise just how hurtful some of the anti-gay marriage comments can be. When you hear comments like "gay relationships aren't natural because they can't produce children" it's hurtful. The idea that gay people are trying to "destroy" marriage is hurtful when you know that all gay people actually want is the right to marry in the same way straight people have the right to marry. So many (note: many not all) people who oppose gay marriage are also extremely homophobic, making comments describing gay people as "perverted" or "deviant." I wish people would give a little more thought to the sort of insults and abuse that many gay people put up with on a day-to-day basis before they start complaining about people being "intolerant" of prejudice.
Precisely. And joyfulgirl, agree with you as well.

Angela
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:14 PM   #310
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

I wish people would give a little more thought to the sort of insults and abuse that many gay people put up with on a day-to-day basis before they start complaining about people being "intolerant" of prejudice.
...which is exactly why I have become "intolerant" of this kind of prejudice. I've been fighting for gay and lesbian rights for more than 25 years so I've just about exhausted my patient and polite ways of dealing with what I consider to be closed minds about it. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

DrTeeth--re: the new mayor of San Francisco:

http://www.iht.com/articles/130357.html

"Most politicians don't get away with doing the right thing at a time when society is not necessarily unanimously ready for that," Newsom, a Democrat, said in an interview.

"I did it because I thought it was right," he said, "and those are the easiest decisions, and the toughest political decisions. Easiest decisions because you just know it is the right thing, but the politics of it: My God, how do I explain this to family member X? How do I explain this to the person who married my wife and I in one of the most traditional Catholic weddings two years ago?"

During the interview in his City Hall office, Newsom, 36, stood by the decision to recognize same-sex marriages, passionately describing his motives as pure and principled and grounded in guarantees of equality in the state's Constitution. But he also promised to "step down" on his new policy if the courts ruled against it, saying his main objective of putting a "human face" on the gay marriage debate nationwide had been achieved.

"I just say to the president," Newsom said, '"Come out and meet with the three-plus thousand couples that have committed themselves to one another, committed to a long-term, loving relationship with equal status, the same status that he and his wife are afforded. And recognize the spirit and the pride that comes with that."

...

It was there, sitting in Washington, that Newsom heard Bush speak against same-sex marriages.
.
"I was there and I just was scratching my head, saying this was not the world that I grew up aspiring to live in, that he was talking about," Newsom said. "I just found some of the words quite divisive.

I respect that good people disagree on this topic, but you know, I didn't think he needed to use the State of the Union to be so divisive."

When Newsom got back to San Francisco, he said he read the court decisions authorizing gay marriage in Massachusetts as well as the U.S. Supreme Court ruling last year on sodomy. As he mulled over them and Bush's comments, he said, he became convinced that he had a moral obligation to open the doors to same-sex marriages in San Francisco. And unlike many other big-city mayors, he had the ability to do so because San Francisco is both a city and a county, and in California, marriage licenses are a county responsibility.

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Old 02-19-2004, 03:15 PM   #311
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Good luck to your friend, Angela. It's good she has a support team and it seems you are there for her.
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:40 PM   #312
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees




So it's a personal attack if you say that religious beliefs aren't a good basis for a law, but if you say there's something wrong with someone because they're gay that's just fine.
I never said I was against homosexuality or homosexual marriage, which is why I don't understand the attack of my religious beliefs. The second I mention religion, people assume I'm against homosexuality, or I'm homophobic, or whatever.
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:43 PM   #313
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I never said I was against homosexuality or homosexual marriage, which is why I don't understand the attack of my religious beliefs. The second I mention religion, people assume I'm against homosexuality, or I'm homophobic, or whatever.
You basically are saying what I said in the other thread....There are people who have come to conclusions about certain "hot" issues that came to these conclusions not based only on religion.
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Old 02-19-2004, 03:47 PM   #314
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I never said I was against homosexuality or homosexual marriage, which is why I don't understand the attack of my religious beliefs. The second I mention religion, people assume I'm against homosexuality, or I'm homophobic, or whatever.
The comment you're quoting isn't an "attack [on] your religious beliefs." I stated that I don't consider religious beliefs to be a fair basis for making laws. That's not an attack on any form of religious belief, rather a comment on what constitutes reasonable grounds for making a law.
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Old 02-19-2004, 04:44 PM   #315
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One more thing I was thinking about while watching a news bit on this issue on MSNBC earlier...this is not an attack of any kind toward anybody anywhere, it's just a question: Okay, so some people in this country don't support homosexual marriage being legal based on religious grounds. But when someone's religion starts supporting discrimination...I'm just wondering how somebody can support that aspect of their religion? I understand some people are very devoted to their religion, and that's cool, but if the religion starts getting to supporting discrimination...I dunno, I would think that'd be worth some concern.

It also baffles me when I hear adults being unsupportive of this stuff, and know that their children could pick up on these attitudes.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Good luck to your friend, Angela. It's good she has a support team and it seems you are there for her.
Thanks. Yeah, she's definitely got some very supportive people around her, thankfully. She's given me a lot of insight into what life is like for her, and I just hope that one day she'll be able to do what makes her happy.

I particularly feel bad for her in regards to her family. I mean, the rest of society may make her angry, but she can shrug a lot of those people off, 'cause they don't even know her. But when she knows her own family would treat her like dirt should they find out...that just makes my blood boil. Nobody should ever be afraid to be themselves around their own family.

Angela
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