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Old 02-11-2004, 03:23 PM   #196
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Yeah I read the article and basically it says if you aren't going to procreate you're f##king up the sanctity of marriage.
If it really says that, then their argument is doomed to fail. I got married fully capable of having children, yet with absolutely no intention of having children. So these people might call my marriage invalid.



That's going to work.
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Old 02-11-2004, 05:23 PM   #197
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Sure I'd say that's very cold, harsh, but that's what the biology book stated, an organism is only biologically fit, if it passes on its genes.
Wrong.

Absolute fitness, in the biological sense, is a "measure of an organism's likelihood to survive and reproduce in the face of natural selection."

As for Bush - shame on him.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:11 PM   #198
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Originally posted by martha


You are welcome to your religious beliefs. Stop intentionally getting mixed up. The problem here in the States is that people are using their religious beliefs to make laws that discriminate against groups of people.
I'm not intentionally trying to mix things up, it just sounded like people were asking for a non-religious reason why homosexuals should not get married and I don't believe there is one. The Church has no right to influence matters of the State.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:13 PM   #199
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Ok. I understand what you're saying now.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:24 PM   #200
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Further towards the end of the article:

Quote:
Same-sex marriage advocates are startlingly clear on this point. Marriage law, they repeatedly claim, has nothing to do with babies or procreation or getting mothers and fathers for children. In forcing the state legislature to create civil unions for gay couples, the high court of Vermont explicitly ruled that marriage in the state of Vermont has nothing to do with procreation. Evan Wolfson made the same point in "Marriage and Same Sex Unions": "[I]sn't having the law pretend that there is only one family model that works (let alone exists) a lie?" He goes on to say that in law, "marriage is not just about procreation--indeedis not necessarily about procreation at all."

Wolfson is right that in the course of the sexual revolution the Supreme Court struck down many legal features designed to reinforce the connection of marriage to babies. The animus of elites (including legal elites) against the marriage idea is not brand new. It stretches back at least thirty years. That is part of the problem we face, part of the reason 40 percent of our children are growing up without their fathers.

It is also true, as gay-marriage advocates note, that we impose no fertility tests for marriage: Infertile and older couples marry, and not every fertile couple chooses procreation. But every marriage between a man and a woman is capable of giving any child they create or adopt a mother and a father. Every marriage between a man and a woman discourages either from creating fatherless children outside the marriage vow. In this sense, neither older married couples nor childless husbands and wives publicly challenge or dilute the core meaning of marriage. Even when a man marries an older woman and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:44 PM   #201
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave


I'll just post the link - I don't know that anyone will actually read it, but at least it doesn't mention God, if that encourages anyone. It articulates very well where I am coming from, leaving out the religious aspect of it:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...2/939pxiqa.asp
Thank you for posting this!
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:47 PM   #202
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Have there been any studies done on the effect it might have on kids to have two dads or two moms? Anyone know of any info on this?
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:48 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
Even when a man marries an older woman and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.
How is this an argument against gay marriage? Let's change one word.

Quote:
Even when a man marries an older man and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.
How is this any different? You could even argue for the superiority of gay marriage on this point, because even if one partner doesn't keep their vows they will never accidentally produce a child, thus keeping all children safe. I mean, really.

But perhaps I'm one of those elites with animus towards the idea of marriage. Just don't tell my wife. Or my son.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:57 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Have there been any studies done on the effect it might have on kids to have two dads or two moms? Anyone know of any info on this?
It might be to early to tell since adoption by same-sex couples is a new thing. But face it, do we really need research to know if a child is better off in the hands of two loving people than it is rotting away in some shelter in Rio de Janeiro?

Now I've re-read the part BLS posted, the author seems obsessed with linking babies to marriage. Obviously she's entitled to her opinion but as long as the law doesn't require married couples to have kids, forbid children outside of wedlock or put any other legal connection between marriage and children, this boats isn't going to sail legally. And that's a good thing, in my humble opinion.
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:57 PM   #205
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Well, I can speak from experience.....

My cousin is fine. His mom and my aunt raised him. He is married and is expectinghis first child. They were and are still together. No separations, divorces ect.

I can also say this......

My Heterosexual Parents have been married a total of TEN times. My biological father=3 times
My biological mother= 5 times
My adopted father = 2 times
My three sisters and I have not one common pair of parents. What effects do you think this has on a kid growing up?

As a teacher, I see kids come through my doors over the past 10 years that are devistated when parents divorce or when DAD does not live up to being a father. And I have said it in here time and time again....Fathers are NOT doing their jobs. They are abandoning their children. I bet Martha might have some insight in this as well. I would love to see these kids in a stable home with two LOVING parents.

Were there any studies before we ended segregation of our schools to determine the effects that this would have on the kids?

Maybe if we stop bringing up kids to hate because of our differences....we would not have to worry about studies because I can tell you this....I would rather see two GAY parents in a home that love a kid, rather than what I witness on a daily basis. I know there would be less outside things getting in the way of doing what I love to do....teach.
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Old 02-11-2004, 07:00 PM   #206
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But every marriage between a man and a woman is capable of giving any child they create or adopt a mother and a father. Every marriage between a man and a woman discourages either from creating fatherless children outside the marriage vow. In this sense, neither older married couples nor childless husbands and wives publicly challenge or dilute the core meaning of marriage. Even when a man marries an older woman and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.
But every marriage between a man and a woman is capable of giving any child they create or adopt a mother and a father. Every marriage between a man and a woman discourages either from creating fatherless children outside the marriage vow. In this sense, neither older married couples nor childless husbands and wives publicly challenge or dilute the core meaning of marriage. Even when a man marries an older woman and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.

This hasn't worked for millenia. People have had children "out-of-wedlock" while being married forever.



How do we account for these fathers that have children with several women, live with none of them, yet were married to each mother at the time of conception and birth?
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Old 02-11-2004, 07:33 PM   #207
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Originally posted by ThatGuy


How is this an argument against gay marriage? Let's change one word.



How is this any different? You could even argue for the superiority of gay marriage on this point, because even if one partner doesn't keep their vows they will never accidentally produce a child, thus keeping all children safe. I mean, really.

Absolutely. The authors argument is ridiculous and holds no water.
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:30 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Well, I can speak from experience.....

My cousin is fine. His mom and my aunt raised him. He is married and is expectinghis first child. They were and are still together. No separations, divorces ect.

I can also say this......

My Heterosexual Parents have been married a total of TEN times. My biological father=3 times
My biological mother= 5 times
My adopted father = 2 times
My three sisters and I have not one common pair of parents. What effects do you think this has on a kid growing up?

As a teacher, I see kids come through my doors over the past 10 years that are devistated when parents divorce or when DAD does not live up to being a father. And I have said it in here time and time again....Fathers are NOT doing their jobs. They are abandoning their children. I bet Martha might have some insight in this as well. I would love to see these kids in a stable home with two LOVING parents.

Were there any studies before we ended segregation of our schools to determine the effects that this would have on the kids?

Maybe if we stop bringing up kids to hate because of our differences....we would not have to worry about studies because I can tell you this....I would rather see two GAY parents in a home that love a kid, rather than what I witness on a daily basis. I know there would be less outside things getting in the way of doing what I love to do....teach.
Thank you. . Very well put (also, I applaud what you want to do at your church, even if you may get in trouble with them for it. Way to go).

Again I ask, what business is it of anyone else's whether or not a couple brings a child into this world? Why in the world do they care?

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
I hope Massachusetts is strong and honest enough to stand up for what is right and for equal for all. That's what this country has always stood for, at least theoretically, and I'd be proud to be a citizen of a state that took such a stand.
I hope they do, too. That'd be wonderful.

And, oh, yeah-Bush sucks. .

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
On the other hand, I'm disappointed in the leaders of (my) the Catholic Church and their resistance. Don't they realize they are pushing people away from God rather than doing what should be more important, and that is accepting?
No kidding! I mean, Christianity talks about Jesus Christ, who accepted everyone for who they were...why can't some of the followers do the same?

Angela
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:14 PM   #209
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
My three sisters and I have not one common pair of parents. What effects do you think this has on a kid growing up?
I didn't mean to try to use it as an excuse for homosexuals not to marry, but I've heard people try, that's why I asked. I'm not interested in comparisons with flawed heterosexual marriages. I just want to know if there have been any studies done on the subject (kids raised by homosexuals).
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:24 PM   #210
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

I mean, Christianity talks about Jesus Christ, who accepted everyone for who they were...why can't some of the followers do the same?
It differs church to church. The church I grew up in traditionally believes that homosexuality is a sin. More specifically, a sin due to original sin because it doesn't involve a choice by the person. Everyone is allowed and welcomed in church because it is not the right of humankind to judge one "sin" in comparison with another. Now I only speak for my church here, but we would be more than willing to welcome and accept homosexuals into the church family. My church would never marry homosexuals and does not encourage or support homoseuxality, but they don't encourage or support drinking, prostitution, etc, etc. I think the threat that homosexuality poses to the church is because unlike other behavior the chuch classifies as "sinful", homosexuality cannot and should not be changed. Gamblers and drinkers can get help, they can and should change, but you can't make a homosexual straight. I think the church really struggles with this obvious difference from other sins.
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