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Old 03-18-2003, 11:41 AM   #31
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"Whether it is true or not is not my perogative. "Perception" is the key here. I have a feeling that, a year from now, the Iraqi people will have vastly differing opinions, much like Russia's awakening after Stalin."

But Melon, I do not deny that the conciousness of the Iraqi population has been indoctrinated to believe the evils of the West (and for some evils the stories need not be so tall), that is not what concerns me. What concerns me is 'liberating' a country that, for whatever reason, hates this 'Free World' of ours and indeed wont be thanking us neither in the short run or the long run because whatever happens, I am certain that the we will not be concerned with its problems during the aftermath. Why? Because its happened far too many times before and it is STILL happening now. Too many times we have bombed and left the living to bury the dead relatives. Too many times we have left orphans in poverty only to grow up to be another Osama Bin Laden. Too many times, and we still don't learn.

The same stories keep being repeated, the same examples echoing down empty corridors, and why are they empty? Because no one is interested. I do not believe one word from either Bush or Blair that they will oversee the reconstruction of Iraq. Why? Because even if their intentions were noble and honest (which is, I truly believe, questionable - but lets not pay too much attention to my cynicism) their terms will soon be over with (it takes far longer than one presidential term to reconstruct a country) and they will be replaced by different politicians with different political agendas following different political trends. Politics, in its obsession with following both the dollar and the public's support - is much like fashion.

In a few months, at best, no one will give a dingo's kidney about Iraq. What has happened to Afghanistan? Our selective Media hardly provides us with the exposition or the interest we are supposed to have in a country that we have ravaged with war. What on EARTH is being done about the Palestinian/Israeli question? Yes, it is an ENDLESS bore but there is nothing more infuriating and frustrating than this absolute complacency we have to the horrors happening on both sides, hour after hour, day after day. But of course, there is no interest. None whatsoever.

So, forgive me, but this 'rebuilding' and 'reconstructing' is a myth. As we have seen before, in a long and tragic history of the West sodomizing the East and leaving it to despair, after the excitement of war, the reports from the war-stricken Iraq will become fewer and fewer, people will become more indifferent and eventually, when it is no longer in the politician's favour to pursue an active interest in Iraq, it will be put aside. Oh yes, every now and then contribute a few million here and there. When all along it is NOT simply money that rebuilds a nation, it is dedication and commitment, longer than a few months, or even years, I daresay.

But of course, no matter what a butcher Stalin was, there are still active Stalin supporters to this day. There is still a more than healthy population of Pinochet supporters to this day (which should sit well with the USA, since they helped install him). There is still a healthy population of Franco supporters to this day. And no, I do not mean the same 'healthy population' that support Hitler to this day, I mean a substantially higher number. I'm sorry if they've escaped people's notice, they have certainly troubled mine.

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Old 03-18-2003, 11:53 AM   #32
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Your concerns are valid, and, in all actuality, I share them with you. All of this does depend on what is inside the Bush Administration's minds when you pull away the media agitprop fed to us.

Nation building is certainly possible, as proven by the allied rebuilding of Germany and the U.S. rebuilding of Japan after World War II. This, of course, did not take a short time whatsoever; Japan took close to 10 years before the U.S. was able to leave completely. The question nowadays, of course, is whether there is interest in such rebuilding nowadays.

The solution, of course, is "re-education," which certainly evokes Orwellian imagery--and it should. Unfortunately, the reinvention of history is a hallmark of world history. It should only interest people that the "Renaissance" is a construction of 19th century romantic humanism--and likely never existed in such a wide and "organized" fashion as history texts portray.

So the dilemma is put forward. What is there to do? I don't have an answer...just thoughts.

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Old 03-18-2003, 12:14 PM   #33
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Actually

I'm not going to argue about this topic. However, i do have to point out that the famous "celebration" video we all saw was in the streets of Pakistan, not the streets fo Baghdad. I remember that plainly and without a doubt. If there was any celebration in the streets of Baghdad, it was forced celebration. Hussein gets his soldiers to force things like this for film. But of course, they never show the soldiers standing there with guns pointing at the crowd.
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Old 03-18-2003, 12:56 PM   #34
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80s,

I clearly remember seeing the celebration in Ramallah, where candy was being given out. I doubt it happened in just one country, in just one city. Wouldn't be surprised if it had happened in Baghdad either.
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:17 PM   #35
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And to answer the original question "Will there be cheering and rejoicing in the streets?", yes, I think there will be, just as there was rejoicing in the streets when the allies recently liberated Afghanistan, and when the allies liberated France in WW2, and when the allies liberated the Jewish concentration camps (and if you don't think that was the case, you really should go hear a speech from a holocaust survivor). When a people are being oppressed, they would gladly risk their lives for a chance at freedom. Don't forget that the US has already dropped over a million leaflets telling the regular Army and civilians that if they don't want to fight us, we don't want to fight them, and instructions on how to be safe. The regular Iraqi Army (which is all but about 75,000 of the entire armed forces wants nothing to do with this war. They aren't just drafted. They are brutalized and threatened into joing up. Did ya'll read the story about the "training incident" of last week? British troops on the Kuwaiti side of the Iraq/Kuwaiti border were performing field exercises. Iraqi troops (the regular army) heard the gunfire and ran over to them and tried to surrender, without firing a single shot. The British commander said he hated having to tell them they had to go back. And this is nothing new...don't ya'll remember the scores and scores of Iraqi troops surrending in the gulf war without firing a shot? Many fo these actually thanked the Allies for letting them surrender. Now, what does that tell you about the Iraqi people? I'll tell you what it tells me - that they don't support Saddam at all.
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Old 03-18-2003, 08:39 PM   #36
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80's,

Here is an article that supports your position:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

Quote:
In the desolate expanse of desert where Iraq and Jordan meet, the shabby concrete huts of the Trebeil border crossing provide countless opportunities for Saddam Hussein's officials to humiliate hapless travellers.

When I found myself making a quick exit from Iraq in the early hours of yesterday, less than 30 minutes before President George W Bush delivered his White House address and all but declared war, this stage of the journey was the one I dreaded most.

Portentous notices on Trebeil's grimy walls offer travellers an improbable array of instructions. One sign with a golden frame decrees in garbled English that all visitors must submit to an Aids test on entry and exit. The only exceptions are "friendly diplomats and children under 14".

Another notice in almost incomprehensible English forbids anyone from taking more than the equivalent of 1,000 Iraqi dinars - about 25 pence - in any currency across the border. Nearby, a portrait of Saddam shows him laughing uproariously.

But when I arrived at Trebeil, my fears vanished, for Saddam's weary border officials made no attempt to enforce his rules. Even the imminence of foreign invasion had not induced them to humiliate a citizen of an "aggressor" country.

With shrugs of indifference, the guards failed to force me to undergo an Aids test. Unusually, this favour did not even require a bribe. A dead-beat customs official waved through every bag untouched. He wore an expression of supreme weariness when we drove out of Saddam's crumbling domain and into the safety of neighbouring Jordan.

Sitting in Baghdad and watching Saddam's last days tick by, Iraq did not strike me as a ruthless dictatorship preparing for war with iron efficiency and determination. Instead, a demoralised population was fatigued beyond belief by 24 years of Saddam's tyranny, combined with endless war, isolation and sanctions.

Anyone who spends any time in Iraq knows that loathing for Saddam is almost universal among his people. No better proof can be found than the regime's official demonstrations. These are almost laughably devoid of passion, spontaneity or fervour.

Even in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, marshals from the ruling Ba'ath party drilled the demonstrators, telling them when to chant their leader's praises and when to wave their fists. After they had gone through the motions, the chants died away and Saddam's supposed followers dispersed gratefully.

In private, I have found that some Iraqis have been surprisingly willing to voice their true feelings. During the last six weeks in Baghdad I have often heard Iraqis describe Saddam as a "murderer" and an "evil man" who they "hate".

By contrast there is a complete absence of hostility towards Britons and Americans, who are invariably treated with great friendliness. In four visits to Iraq I have been threatened with violence only once - and that was by a British peace activist from Hay-on-Wye.

The Information Ministry in Baghdad provides a textbook case of the demoralisation and decay at the heart of the Iraqi state. Over the last few months this ministry has given up trying to control journalists, let alone sell Saddam to the international media.

It has long been incapable of organising press conferences. Instead, its demoralised officials have done nothing but fleece journalists of their employers' money. Saddam's third-rate spin doctors have even proved themselves largely unable to track what journalists in Baghdad write about Iraq, despite the advent of the internet.

With Saddam making his dispositions for war it comes as no surprise that the Information Ministry has been stripped of its responsibility for journalists. This ministry is the communications hub of the regime, making it a key target for air attack.

But its idea of preparing for war was to begin extensive renovation work three weeks ago, succeeding only in covering the entire building with dust and creating more brickwork for the cruise missiles to destroy.

When I took my leave of the Information Ministry on Monday I was compelled to part with the equivalent of £5,000 for the privilege of an exit visa. To be fleeced is one thing. To be fleeced by an organisation that might well be pulverised within the week is quite another.

Suffocated by a regime that is both murderous and venal, Iraqis retain their humour and hospitality. It is difficult to think of another population that has shown such stoicism. Now they are grimly preparing for another ordeal. On the 600-mile overland journey from Baghdad to Amman, the Jordanian capital, signs of panic-buying were everywhere and the road was lined with petrol queues.

Amid the easy friendliness and the coded, elliptical remarks by which Iraqis convey their real opinions, I believe that they genuinely hope that the coming ordeal will, at last, bring down the curtain on their long nightmare.
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:06 PM   #37
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I remember Saddam coming out and offering his "condolences" for the victims of 9-11.

I think it was staged, for appearances sakes.

I remember the ppl in Jakarta celebrating and burning US Flags..

I hope ppl celebrate when the US forces arrive and I hope defectors immeadeately will show the US Troops where the WMDs are stashed, now w no threat of reprisals.

I then will wait for all the lefties to apologize to our beloved President.

thank u
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:10 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I then will wait for all the lefties to apologize to our beloved President.
Unfortunately, no matter the outcome in Iraq (WMD discovered and destroyed, Saddam removed from power, no civilians killed by US forces) or the elimination of terrorist cells, you will still see the for GWB.
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:13 PM   #39
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I will wait.
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:17 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Unfortunately, no matter the outcome in Iraq (WMD discovered and destroyed, Saddam removed from power, no civilians killed by US forces) or the elimination of terrorist cells, you will still see the for GWB.
and rightly so.
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:20 PM   #41
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a toast to open-mindedness
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:50 PM   #42
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Yes, a toast! To open-mindedness, indeed!
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Old 03-20-2003, 06:50 PM   #43
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=31621

Quote:
Baghdad welcomes 'moment of liberation'
Reporter in capital says newly emboldened people eager for war

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 20, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

Newly emboldened Iraqis are revealing to the few reporters left in Baghdad that they see America's military action as their moment of liberation.

"Many, many Iraqis are telling us now – not always in the whispers we only heard in the past, but now in quite candid conversations – that they are waiting for America to come and bring them liberty," said New York Times reporter John Burns in an interview from Baghdad on the PBS News Hour last night.

"Along with all of this apprehension," said Burns, "Americans should know that there also is a good deal of anticipation. Iraqis have suffered beyond, I think, the common understanding in the United States from the repression of the past 30 years."

PBS's Gwen Ifill asked Burns to clarify: "They are actually eagerly anticipating war?"

"It's very hard for anybody to understand this," he said. "It can only be understood in terms of the depth of repression here."

Burns said that, of course, there are people who don't want war out of loyalty to the regime, or out of fear or out of "suspicion of America's motives." Because of the closed nature of Iraqi society, we cannot know how numerous either side is, he said.

"All I can tell you – and every reporter who is here will attest this – is that the most extraordinary experience of the last few days has been a sudden breaking of the ice here," said Burns, "with people from every corner of life coming forward to tell us that they understand what America is about in this."

Burns said the people naturally are fearful of errant bombing, damage to Iraq's infrastructure and what kind of government might come after Saddam is gone.

"Can I just say," Burns stated, after Ifill tried to interrupt, "there is absolutely no doubt, no doubt, that there are many, many Iraqis who see what is about to happen here as their moment of liberation."

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Old 03-20-2003, 06:55 PM   #44
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"I will wait."

Until hell freezes over?

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Old 03-21-2003, 11:23 AM   #45
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Yes: There IS cheering in the streets!

sorry, jsut realized this may constitute a "spinoff thread". See "Will there be cheering in the streets".
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