MERGED-->Veil makes positive relations difficult + Row over...

[Irvine511]

The Veil makes positive relations more difficult

what do you think?



[q]Straw extends attack on veils

Mr Straw said the full veil made relations between communities difficult

The Leader of the Commons’ latest comments followed his controversial call for Muslim women to remove their veils when they come to see him at his constituency office.

Asked whether he thought veils should be discarded completely, he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather.”

Mr Straw’s decision to step up his comments came as Downing Street offered a highly guarded response to the intervention.

While Number 10 defended his right to speak out, a spokesman repeatedly ducked questions about whether Tony Blair shared his Cabinet colleague’s view on veils.

She said that Mr Straw - whose Blackburn constituency has a large Muslim population - was setting out his “personal opinions”.

But the spokesman stressed: “Because people are expressing their views and this is an issue of debate, it does not make it Government policy.”

Asked what Mr Blair’s personal view was on the issue, she added: “People should also have the right not to express their views.”

Despite Downing Street’s cool response, Mr Straw said he was convinced that wearing the veil made “positive relations between the two communities more difficult”.

He added: “You cannot force people where they live, that’s a matter of choice and economics, but you can be concerned about the implications of separateness and I am.”

His comments have attracted widespread criticism, though some in the Muslim community have defended his decision to raise the issue.

Oliver Letwin, the Conservative policy chief, accused the Commons leader of espousing a “dangerous doctrine” while Simon Hughes, the Liberal Democrat party chairman, said his remarks were “insensitive and surprising”.

A spokesman for the Lancashire Council of Mosques said: “For such a seasoned and astute politician to make such a comment that has shocked his Muslim constituents seems ill-judged and misconceived.”

But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, was more supportive.

“This (the veil) does cause some discomfort to non-Muslims. One can understand this,” he said.

Baroness Uddin, the Muslim Labour peer, said it was important to have a debate on the issue.

“I think it’s about human rights on both sides - Jack’s right to say and the women’s right to wear what they please,” she said.[/q]

 

[adrball]

I have no problem with him stating his personal view. That's what freedom of speech is all about. Debates about things that separate communities should be openly encouraged.

Being able to see someones face is a large part of effective communication (isn't only 20% or communication via the spoken work and the rest through body language?). Technology (telephones, internet, email etc.etc.) has made is easier to communicate without face-to-face but it is much more easily mis-read. Emoticons just don't have the same effect.

I personally would feel unconfortable speaking to someone who was covering their face. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I would ask them to remove what ever it is.

 

[verte76]

I saw a woman wearing a veil in a drug store parking lot a couple of years ago. She had her two kids in the car and left them in there when she went into the store. I understand that they want to save their beauty for their husbands. I don't see why they can't do that if they choose to do so. Straw's entitled to his opinion, and I've never talked to a woman in a veil. He obviously has.

 

[Irvine511]

i agree that the important thing is not whether a woman is wearing a veil, but whether or not she has the choice to wear the veil, but i also can't help but wonder if the concealment of someone's face isn't a form of psychological control, that one of the reasons to keep a woman's face from view is not just to "hide her beauty" (which seems so euphamistic) or "modesty," but to further the control men have over not just her presentation to society, but her very interaction with society itself.

this is not to advocate making something illegal, but to question the motives behind the thing itself.

 

[Bluer White]

I never thought poker players should be allowed to wear sunglasses.

 

[verte76]

It is definitely a way to control a woman. But if they choose to be controlled I don't reallly have a problem with that.

 

[Pearl]

I've never spoken to someone with a veil, but based on seeing them, they appear to be less human. If I were to speak to someone wearing one, I probably would feel uncomfortable as I would not feel I am speaking to a person.

 

[A_Wanderer]

A vestige of cultural misogyny imposed on the basis of faith and as an affirmation thereof. But they can sure as hell haggle at the market - I think that not seeing facial expressions gives unfair advantage

 

[verte76]

A vestige of cultural misogyny imposed on the basis of faith and as an affirmation thereof. But they can sure as hell haggle at the market - I think that not seeing facial expressions gives unfair advantage

I'm going to try to do some research to see if this is a hold-over from pre-Islamic Arabic culture. I wouldn't be surprised if it is. It's definitely not of Persian origin, and it's not of Turkic origin. If it goes back anywhere it would have to be Arabic.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It is definitely a way to control a woman. But if they choose to be controlled I don't reallly have a problem with that.

But how much choice do they really have? How much choice does any woman have in any misogynist culture?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23370188-details/Salman+Rushdie+says+Muslim+veils+'suck'/article.do

"Speaking as somebody with three sisters and a very largely female Muslim family, there's not a single woman I know in my family or in their friends who would have accepted wearing the veil.

"I think the battle against the veil has been a long and continuing battle against the limitation of women, so in that sense I'm completely on [Straw's] side.

"He was expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do. I think the veil is a way of taking power away from women."

 

[yolland]

I guess for me, my strongest feeling on this subject is probably self-reproach at my inability to muster up strong feelings at all, lol. There are likely various reasons for this, but I think a big one is just that, unlike a lot of folks I guess, when I see a veiled woman what I see first and foremost is simply a culturally traditional style of dress, not an ideology or a "statement." Kind of like, I *think*, what most folks see when they pass a traditionally dressed Orthodox Ashkenazi Jewish man--the black coat, the top hat, the beard and sidelocks. In reality there is an ideology of sorts attached to all these items, but in practice I don't think most dwell on or "see" that; rather they just think "There's a traditional Orthodox Jewish man" and that's pretty much the end of it. That is, more or less, how I react to the sight of a woman in a veil.

I find it interesting that Straw's issue with veils, at least from what I've read of his comments, revolved not around the idea that they're misogynistic in some way, but rather that he simply felt they make "honest" face-to-face discussions impossible. I don't think I would myself have that problem with talking to female constituents wearing the niqab-type veil he was specifically complaining about, where the eyes are still visible, but I guess I might initially feel a little awkward "connecting" to a consituent wearing a chador or burka where everything is covered--although, from my few personal experiences of having talked with women wearing full veils, I found the material was plenty thin enough that I still got a strong sense of their face, if not their features precisely. Again, it really just didn't bother me much--I didn't think, "Why does she want to cut herself off from me in this way?" or "Why is she so ashamed to show me her face?" To me, it just didn't occur to personalize or ideologize the perception like that. This was in India, where I was conducting fieldwork among people of various religious groups, inquiring into their attitudes and experiences concerning caste, and I found these women just as confident, forthcoming and outspoken with their opinions as any other Indian woman; there was nothing "veiled" about their personalities, which came through loud and clear.

I do appreciate though that there are women who are forced to wear a veil against their will, and who for various reasons understand the "ideology" behind it in a way that makes them loath to wear it, and of course it's wrong and a problem when such women are coerced, whether subtly or blatantly, into wearing one. My own mother, like some other traditional Jewish women of her generation and background, still always wears a headscarf outside the home, and remembers having her scarf confiscated and her head shaved at Auschwitz as one of the most humiliating debasements of her identity she experienced, although obviously in context the meaning of this was symbolic and far less cruel than other things she underwent. But it's not like she walks around berating or vilifying Jewish women who find the gender-specific appeal to modesty it entails problematic or just plain irrelevant; if she did, then I would certainly have a problem with that. Although not with her wearing it; for her, it's an expression of identification with and pride in a particular understanding of what it means to be a Jewish woman, and I have no problem with that at all, any more than I would with a religious woman who feels her proper place is at home caring for a family, so long as she isn't forcing that choice on other women nor vilifying them for doing so.

So, I guess I just find it hard to relate to the problems Jack Straw has with talking to his veiled consituents. And above and beyond that, I don't feel it's the job of the government to decide for themselves whether and when a Muslim woman is wearing it for "separatist" reasons, or because she was coerced to do so. It may be appropriate in certain circumstances for a woman who is being coerced to bring the authorities into it, and while obviously such circumstances might make for a politically sensitive situation, I would certainly support the authorities for acting in the woman's favor regardless, in such a case. But otherwise, I think who wears a veil or doesn't, and how she feels about women who do or don't, is an issue that needs to be left up to Muslim women and their communities.

 

[verte76]

But how much choice do they really have? How much choice does any woman have in any misogynist culture?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23370188-details/Salman+Rushdie+says+Muslim+veils+'suck'/article.do

"Speaking as somebody with three sisters and a very largely female Muslim family, there's not a single woman I know in my family or in their friends who would have accepted wearing the veil.

"I think the battle against the veil has been a long and continuing battle against the limitation of women, so in that sense I'm completely on [Straw's] side.

"He was expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do. I think the veil is a way of taking power away from women."

In many countries, they don't. In Saudi Arabia, women can't leave their houses without a veil covering their faces, and they must be accompanied by a male relative. Same for other rigidly Islamic countries, like Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, and parts of India. That woman I saw in the parking lot may have been from one of these cultures and not have had any choice with the veil or much else about her life. But I've also read that a Muslim women says of the veil "We wear it with pride". So it's hard to know for sure.

 

[vaz02]

I wouldnt feel comfortable talking to someone where i can not see their face , they might even not be the people they claim to be , how would i know ?

If people are not allowed to wear hoods or balaclavas in malls or shopping centre's these veil's also should be banned.

Its about time these people adapted to british culture and society. lump it or leave it.

 

[verte76]

The veil is illegal in Turkey, and the headscarf is banned in government buildings. Currently the government in power in Turkey is moderately Islamist. The prime minister's wife caused a real ruckus when she wore a headscarf to a state function. Many Turkish women didn't feel like she was representing them properly. The Internet went nuts with outraged notes on various Turkish culture lists.

 

[Greenlight]

Row over Muslim women wearing veils

There has been a lot of debate here recently regarding Jack Straw, the Home Secretary's disclosure that he asks Muslim women wearing a veil (the niqab) to remove it if they visit him at his surgery as he feels more comfortable if he can see their faces when he talks to them, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm

He said he made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to show their mouth and nose - and his constituents had so far always agreed to do so.

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."


Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

"Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said.

His statements have polarised opinions including some of those in the Cabinet, with many people (including some Moslems) coming out in support of his views with others vehemently against them. I've got mixed views about this. On the one hand I think that anyone should be able to wear what they want and it's quite offensive to ask these women to remove their veils but on the other hand it does seem divisive and isn't helping racial integration at a time when we need it more than ever. I'm not aware that the Koran states that women must wear a veil and it seems some of the women wear them for motives other than religious ones.
It's obvious that Straw wanted to bring the issue out in the open for public debate but whether it will help multi cultural relations is another matter.
Do many Moslem women wear the veil in other Western societies and if so has the issue caused debate over there?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

(AP)A judge dismissed a small-claims court case filed by a Muslim woman after she refused to remove her veil when she testified.

Ginnnah Muhammad, 42, wore a niqab — a scarf and veil that cover her head and face, leaving only the eyes visible — during a court hearing this month in Hamtramck, a city surrounded by Detroit. She was contesting a $2,750 charge from a rental-car company.

District Judge Paul Paruk told her he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave her a choice: take off the veil while testifying or have the case dismissed. She kept it on.

"I just feel so sad," Muhammad told the Detroit Free Press for Sunday's edition. "... I didn't feel like the court recognized me as a person that needed justice. I just feel I can't trust the court."

Paruk said he told Muhammad to remove her veil Oct. 11 because it is his job to determine whether witnesses are telling the truth. "Part of that, you need to identify the witness and you need to look at the witness and watch how they testify," he said.

Michigan law lacks rules governing how judges handle religious attire of people in court, so judges have leeway on how to run their courtrooms.

Metropolitan Detroit has one of the country's largest Muslim populations, and Hamtramck has a particularly large concentration, but Paruk said it was the first time someone had come before him wearing a niqab.

Dawud Walid, executive director of the Michigan branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the judge violated Muhammad's civil rights.

"Although a niqab is donned by a minority of Muslim females, it is still a bona fide religious practice," he said.

Britons are in the middle of a heated debate over veils, set off this month when former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, now leader of the House of Commons, said Muslim women visiting his office should remove their veils.

 

[verte76]

We had a dispute in Alabama over a law that made it compulsory for a woman to remove a headscarf or nun's headdress for a drivers' license picture. After much controversy, the law was abolished. I was happy when the law was abolished; I didn't think it was fair to Muslim women or Catholic nuns.

 

[verte76]

I'm with CAIR. I don't think it's right to force a Muslim woman to unveil if she doesn't think it's right to do so. In Islam, the concept of modesty is very important. Some women feel strongly about this.

 

[maycocksean]

I'm going to try to do some research to see if this is a hold-over from pre-Islamic Arabic culture. I wouldn't be surprised if it is. It's definitely not of Persian origin, and it's not of Turkic origin. If it goes back anywhere it would have to be Arabic.

I'm pretty sure that the practicing of veiling and the general seclusion of women is pre-Islamic and has more to do with Arabic culture than religion (though it may have since gained a religious rationale. A lot of cultural stuff gets dressed up as religious mandate in all parts of the world and in all religions. Like say celebrating Christmas for Christians).

 

[dazzlingamy]

I think people need to leave their fucking opinions out of it. Why do people feel like that need to run around saving everyone from a horrible fate worse then death?!?! Like yolland said, when i see a veiled woman i think nothing more the a subconcious thought of 'muslim' or whatever. My next door neighbours wear the full head to toe garmet and we have had chats outside and she seems fine. Why do we assume its control over the woman, maybe she wants to wear it, or heaven forbid grew up in a culture where it was normal for women to dress like that. Who are we to stand from a mountain and point down at them and say how teorrible for them. Its their life, they choose, they have a choice EVERYONE has a choice, it may be between a rock and a hard place but you have a choice.

Also, i'd like to see all the girls walking around with their fat hanging over their jeans or their boobs swinging to a fro round their knees or their arses shoved into tight pants covered in a dress, i think it would much nicer walking the street like that!

sorry for being rather testy, i just get very annoyed when people start acting as if wearing a head covering is 'shifty' or women are being controlled because of it because we don't know the story and we shouldnt put our judgements on them!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Funny how that actually mirrors the attitudes that some people have about rape in the US


By ROHAN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer

A senior Muslim cleric compared women who go without a head scarf to "uncovered meat" left out for scavengers, drawing widespread condemnation and calls Thursday for his resignation.

Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali denied he was condoning rape when he made the comments in a sermon last month, and apologized to any women he had offended, saying they were free to dress as they wished.

Hilali was quoted in The Australian newspaper Thursday as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he was quoted as saying, referring to the headdress worn by some Muslim women.

Prime Minister John Howard called the remarks "appalling and reprehensible."

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Howard said.

The comments come during a heated debate in Britain about religious freedom centered around whether Muslim women should wear veils. Similar passions raged when France banned head scarves and other religious symbols in public schools two years ago.

In Australia, there was widespread condemnation Thursday of the cleric's comments from other Muslim leaders, civil libertarians and political leaders.

Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said Hilali's comment was an incitement to rape and that Australia's Muslims should force him to resign.

"This is inciting young men to a violent crime because it is the woman's fault," Goward told television's Nine Network. "It is time the Islamic community did more than say they were horrified. I think it is time he left."

Hilali is the top cleric at Sydney's largest mosque, and is considered the most senior Islamic leader by many Muslims in Australia and New Zealand.

He has in the past served as an adviser to the Australian government on Muslim issues, but triggered a controversy in 2004 for saying in a sermon in Lebanon that the Sept. 11 attacks were "God's work against the oppressors." Hilali said later he did not mean that he supported the attacks, or terrorism.

Relations between Australia's almost 300,000 Muslims and the majority Christian-heritage population are tense following riots last December that often pitted white gangs against youths of Middle Eastern decent.

Howard offended some Muslims recently by singling out some Muslims as extremists who should adopt Australia's Western liberal attitudes to women's rights.

Many Muslims say they are increasingly treated with suspicion since the Sept. 11 and other international terrorist attacks. Waleed Aly, a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria state, said Hilali's comments would result in more antagonism toward Muslims.

"I am expecting a deluge of hate mail," he said. "I am expecting people to get abused in the street and get abused at work."

Hilali said in a statement he was shocked by Thursday's reaction to his sermon.

"The presentation related to religious teachings on modesty and not to go to extremes in enticements, this does not condone rape, I condemn rape," he said.

"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and right to dress as they choose, the duty of man is to avert his glance or walk away," he said.