MERGED-->Veil makes positive relations difficult + Row over... - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-09-2006, 02:21 PM   #1
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,472
Local Time: 06:09 PM
The Veil makes positive relations more difficult

what do you think?



[q]Straw extends attack on veils

Mr Straw said the full veil made relations between communities difficult

The Leader of the Commons’ latest comments followed his controversial call for Muslim women to remove their veils when they come to see him at his constituency office.

Asked whether he thought veils should be discarded completely, he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather.”

Mr Straw’s decision to step up his comments came as Downing Street offered a highly guarded response to the intervention.

While Number 10 defended his right to speak out, a spokesman repeatedly ducked questions about whether Tony Blair shared his Cabinet colleague’s view on veils.

She said that Mr Straw - whose Blackburn constituency has a large Muslim population - was setting out his “personal opinions”.

But the spokesman stressed: “Because people are expressing their views and this is an issue of debate, it does not make it Government policy.”

Asked what Mr Blair’s personal view was on the issue, she added: “People should also have the right not to express their views.”

Despite Downing Street’s cool response, Mr Straw said he was convinced that wearing the veil made “positive relations between the two communities more difficult”.

He added: “You cannot force people where they live, that’s a matter of choice and economics, but you can be concerned about the implications of separateness and I am.”


His comments have attracted widespread criticism, though some in the Muslim community have defended his decision to raise the issue.

Oliver Letwin, the Conservative policy chief, accused the Commons leader of espousing a “dangerous doctrine” while Simon Hughes, the Liberal Democrat party chairman, said his remarks were “insensitive and surprising”.

A spokesman for the Lancashire Council of Mosques said: “For such a seasoned and astute politician to make such a comment that has shocked his Muslim constituents seems ill-judged and misconceived.”

But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, was more supportive.

“This (the veil) does cause some discomfort to non-Muslims. One can understand this,” he said.

Baroness Uddin, the Muslim Labour peer, said it was important to have a debate on the issue.

“I think it’s about human rights on both sides - Jack’s right to say and the women’s right to wear what they please,” she said.[/q]
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-09-2006, 04:57 PM   #2
Refugee
 
adrball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Nightclub in Tripoli
Posts: 1,733
Local Time: 12:09 AM
I have no problem with him stating his personal view. That's what freedom of speech is all about. Debates about things that separate communities should be openly encouraged.

Being able to see someones face is a large part of effective communication (isn't only 20% or communication via the spoken work and the rest through body language?). Technology (telephones, internet, email etc.etc.) has made is easier to communicate without face-to-face but it is much more easily mis-read. Emoticons just don't have the same effect.

I personally would feel unconfortable speaking to someone who was covering their face. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I would ask them to remove what ever it is.
__________________

__________________
adrball is offline  
Old 10-09-2006, 05:25 PM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 PM
I saw a woman wearing a veil in a drug store parking lot a couple of years ago. She had her two kids in the car and left them in there when she went into the store. I understand that they want to save their beauty for their husbands. I don't see why they can't do that if they choose to do so. Straw's entitled to his opinion, and I've never talked to a woman in a veil. He obviously has.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-09-2006, 05:58 PM   #4
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,472
Local Time: 06:09 PM
i agree that the important thing is not whether a woman is wearing a veil, but whether or not she has the choice to wear the veil, but i also can't help but wonder if the concealment of someone's face isn't a form of psychological control, that one of the reasons to keep a woman's face from view is not just to "hide her beauty" (which seems so euphamistic) or "modesty," but to further the control men have over not just her presentation to society, but her very interaction with society itself.

this is not to advocate making something illegal, but to question the motives behind the thing itself.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 10-09-2006, 06:45 PM   #5
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,882
Local Time: 06:09 PM
I never thought poker players should be allowed to wear sunglasses.
__________________
Bluer White is online now  
Old 10-09-2006, 06:47 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 PM
It is definitely a way to control a woman. But if they choose to be controlled I don't reallly have a problem with that.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-09-2006, 06:58 PM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 07:09 PM
I've never spoken to someone with a veil, but based on seeing them, they appear to be less human. If I were to speak to someone wearing one, I probably would feel uncomfortable as I would not feel I am speaking to a person.
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 10-09-2006, 07:54 PM   #8
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:09 AM
A vestige of cultural misogyny imposed on the basis of faith and as an affirmation thereof. But they can sure as hell haggle at the market - I think that not seeing facial expressions gives unfair advantage
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 10-09-2006, 09:58 PM   #9
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
A vestige of cultural misogyny imposed on the basis of faith and as an affirmation thereof. But they can sure as hell haggle at the market - I think that not seeing facial expressions gives unfair advantage
I'm going to try to do some research to see if this is a hold-over from pre-Islamic Arabic culture. I wouldn't be surprised if it is. It's definitely not of Persian origin, and it's not of Turkic origin. If it goes back anywhere it would have to be Arabic.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-10-2006, 10:01 AM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,974
Local Time: 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
It is definitely a way to control a woman. But if they choose to be controlled I don't reallly have a problem with that.
But how much choice do they really have? How much choice does any woman have in any misogynist culture?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...+Muslim+veils+'suck'/article.do

"Speaking as somebody with three sisters and a very largely female Muslim family, there's not a single woman I know in my family or in their friends who would have accepted wearing the veil.

"I think the battle against the veil has been a long and continuing battle against the limitation of women, so in that sense I'm completely on [Straw's] side.

"He was expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do. I think the veil is a way of taking power away from women."
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-10-2006, 11:32 AM   #11
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:09 AM
I guess for me, my strongest feeling on this subject is probably self-reproach at my inability to muster up strong feelings at all, lol. There are likely various reasons for this, but I think a big one is just that, unlike a lot of folks I guess, when I see a veiled woman what I see first and foremost is simply a culturally traditional style of dress, not an ideology or a "statement." Kind of like, I *think*, what most folks see when they pass a traditionally dressed Orthodox Ashkenazi Jewish man--the black coat, the top hat, the beard and sidelocks. In reality there is an ideology of sorts attached to all these items, but in practice I don't think most dwell on or "see" that; rather they just think "There's a traditional Orthodox Jewish man" and that's pretty much the end of it. That is, more or less, how I react to the sight of a woman in a veil.

I find it interesting that Straw's issue with veils, at least from what I've read of his comments, revolved not around the idea that they're misogynistic in some way, but rather that he simply felt they make "honest" face-to-face discussions impossible. I don't think I would myself have that problem with talking to female constituents wearing the niqab-type veil he was specifically complaining about, where the eyes are still visible, but I guess I might initially feel a little awkward "connecting" to a consituent wearing a chador or burka where everything is covered--although, from my few personal experiences of having talked with women wearing full veils, I found the material was plenty thin enough that I still got a strong sense of their face, if not their features precisely. Again, it really just didn't bother me much--I didn't think, "Why does she want to cut herself off from me in this way?" or "Why is she so ashamed to show me her face?" To me, it just didn't occur to personalize or ideologize the perception like that. This was in India, where I was conducting fieldwork among people of various religious groups, inquiring into their attitudes and experiences concerning caste, and I found these women just as confident, forthcoming and outspoken with their opinions as any other Indian woman; there was nothing "veiled" about their personalities, which came through loud and clear.

I do appreciate though that there are women who are forced to wear a veil against their will, and who for various reasons understand the "ideology" behind it in a way that makes them loath to wear it, and of course it's wrong and a problem when such women are coerced, whether subtly or blatantly, into wearing one. My own mother, like some other traditional Jewish women of her generation and background, still always wears a headscarf outside the home, and remembers having her scarf confiscated and her head shaved at Auschwitz as one of the most humiliating debasements of her identity she experienced, although obviously in context the meaning of this was symbolic and far less cruel than other things she underwent. But it's not like she walks around berating or vilifying Jewish women who find the gender-specific appeal to modesty it entails problematic or just plain irrelevant; if she did, then I would certainly have a problem with that. Although not with her wearing it; for her, it's an expression of identification with and pride in a particular understanding of what it means to be a Jewish woman, and I have no problem with that at all, any more than I would with a religious woman who feels her proper place is at home caring for a family, so long as she isn't forcing that choice on other women nor vilifying them for doing so.

So, I guess I just find it hard to relate to the problems Jack Straw has with talking to his veiled consituents. And above and beyond that, I don't feel it's the job of the government to decide for themselves whether and when a Muslim woman is wearing it for "separatist" reasons, or because she was coerced to do so. It may be appropriate in certain circumstances for a woman who is being coerced to bring the authorities into it, and while obviously such circumstances might make for a politically sensitive situation, I would certainly support the authorities for acting in the woman's favor regardless, in such a case. But otherwise, I think who wears a veil or doesn't, and how she feels about women who do or don't, is an issue that needs to be left up to Muslim women and their communities.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 10-10-2006, 12:31 PM   #12
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


But how much choice do they really have? How much choice does any woman have in any misogynist culture?

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...+Muslim+veils+'suck'/article.do

"Speaking as somebody with three sisters and a very largely female Muslim family, there's not a single woman I know in my family or in their friends who would have accepted wearing the veil.

"I think the battle against the veil has been a long and continuing battle against the limitation of women, so in that sense I'm completely on [Straw's] side.

"He was expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do. I think the veil is a way of taking power away from women."
In many countries, they don't. In Saudi Arabia, women can't leave their houses without a veil covering their faces, and they must be accompanied by a male relative. Same for other rigidly Islamic countries, like Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, and parts of India. That woman I saw in the parking lot may have been from one of these cultures and not have had any choice with the veil or much else about her life. But I've also read that a Muslim women says of the veil "We wear it with pride". So it's hard to know for sure.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-10-2006, 12:39 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 11:09 PM
I wouldnt feel comfortable talking to someone where i can not see their face , they might even not be the people they claim to be , how would i know ?

If people are not allowed to wear hoods or balaclavas in malls or shopping centre's these veil's also should be banned.

Its about time these people adapted to british culture and society. lump it or leave it.
__________________
vaz02 is offline  
Old 10-10-2006, 01:23 PM   #14
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 PM
The veil is illegal in Turkey, and the headscarf is banned in government buildings. Currently the government in power in Turkey is moderately Islamist. The prime minister's wife caused a real ruckus when she wore a headscarf to a state function. Many Turkish women didn't feel like she was representing them properly. The Internet went nuts with outraged notes on various Turkish culture lists.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:17 AM   #15
The Fly
 
Greenlight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Never far from a cup of coffee
Posts: 282
Local Time: 12:09 AM
Row over Muslim women wearing veils

There has been a lot of debate here recently regarding Jack Straw, the Home Secretary's disclosure that he asks Muslim women wearing a veil (the niqab) to remove it if they visit him at his surgery as he feels more comfortable if he can see their faces when he talks to them, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm

[QUOTE]
He said he made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to show their mouth and nose - and his constituents had so far always agreed to do so.

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."


Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

"Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said. [QUOTE]


His statements have polarised opinions including some of those in the Cabinet, with many people (including some Moslems) coming out in support of his views with others vehemently against them. I've got mixed views about this. On the one hand I think that anyone should be able to wear what they want and it's quite offensive to ask these women to remove their veils but on the other hand it does seem divisive and isn't helping racial integration at a time when we need it more than ever. I'm not aware that the Koran states that women must wear a veil and it seems some of the women wear them for motives other than religious ones.
It's obvious that Straw wanted to bring the issue out in the open for public debate but whether it will help multi cultural relations is another matter.
Do many Moslem women wear the veil in other Western societies and if so has the issue caused debate over there?
__________________

__________________
Greenlight is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com