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Old 02-11-2003, 03:39 PM   #16
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I am not sure I like the sounds of this. If they followed the constitution with a declaration of war they would not need one piece of this.

Feds Look to Expand Electronic Surveillance

Confidential proposal calls for increased monitoring of private e-mail messages, Web surfing, and other online activities.

Kyle Stock, Medill News Service
Monday, February 10, 2003

WASHINGTON--A confidential document leaked by the Department of Justice Friday calls for laws to expand the government's right to read private e-mail messages and monitor Web surfing, and privacy rights advocates are crying foul.

Drafted by Attorney General John Ashcroft, the 120-page "Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003" would greatly inflate the powers afforded by the controversial Patriot Act, pushed through Congress after the September 11 terrorist attacks. The act gave the FBI and the Justice Department broad new authority to use wiretaps, electronic eavesdropping, and a number of other information-gathering techniques.


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The proposal is under fire from privacy advocates and consumer groups. "I think that the average Web surfer is not going to notice a thing. That's what is so scary," says Lee Tien, senior staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

Under Surveillance
The draft proposes a number of measures to expand the scope of government surveillance. Specifically, it would:

Allow the government to monitor Web activities for 90 days, as opposed to 30 days.
Allow electronic surveillance and wire taps after Congress authorizes the use of military attacks or after a national emergency, as opposed to after a declaration of war.
Make the use of encryption to conceal a crime a felony offense, punishable by at least five years in prison.
Allow the government to obtain an individual's credit report without a subpoena.
Allow the government to treat individual suspects as foreign powers, a designation that expands federal surveillance rights.
Exempt the names of detained terrorist suspects from Freedom of Information Act requests.
Authorize the government to create a DNA database of suspected terrorists.
A "control sheet" circulated by the Office of Legislative Affairs shows that copies of the proposal were sent to Vice President Richard Cheney and Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-Illinois) last month. However, the Department of Justice insists that the draft is not a formal proposal.

Department of Justice spokespersons did not return phone calls.

Under Fire
The proposal is drawing criticism from nonprofit groups focused on consumer and privacy rights.

"We're still reeling from the original USA Patriot Act's impact on civil liberties and now the government wants more," says Cindy Cohn, legal director at the Electronic Freedom Foundation.

"Where is the evidence that the law passed less than two years ago is insufficient? When will Congress draw the line and say, 'This much of our civil liberties you've taken under the guise of terrorism--you may have no more'?"

Critics note that the proposal's treatment of encryption could have serious implications regarding file sharing, an action that increasingly requires coded information. Those found to be sharing music or other entertainment illegally would be subject to an additional five years in prison.

"In this day and age that's going to cut a very broad sweep," says the EFF's Tien. "More and more of our communications over the Internet are de facto encrypted."

Chris Hoofnagle, deputy counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center, says the proposal is part of a concerted effort to subject computer users to "incredible liability."

"It's the idea that using a computer is a kind of aggravated offense, that should create longer sentences than another infraction...it's remarkable," Hoofnagle says.

Becoming Law
While the report has privacy advocates up in arms, many are skeptical about the proposal's chance of becoming law. A number of lawmakers from both parties have questioned the Justice Department's use of the Patriot Act provisions--challenges that could stand in the way of a new round of surveillance powers.

The federal investigative body is also fighting a Freedom of Information Act request by the American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic Privacy Information Center. The groups want federal investigators to reveal how they have been using their expanded surveillance powers since the terrorist attacks.

"I think anyone who reads this bill and remembers what's happened in the past two years...they're not going to be as easily convinced," Tien says.
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Old 02-11-2003, 04:36 PM   #17
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thanks dreadsox for the followup. ashcroft is a creep.
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Old 02-11-2003, 05:35 PM   #18
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wow. so the government can watch how many statements I make against Bush in 90 days instead of 30? One of the scariest things is the restrictions on the Freedom of Information Act. it would allow the government to cover up so much more stuff.
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Old 02-12-2003, 03:05 AM   #19
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Unconstitutional!!!

We need to understand this Act, and its consequences fully, and NOW. I can't believe what I am seeing with my own eyes. The mere fact that this bill has been drafted secretly, and targeted towards Americans is terrorism itself.

Please, please, I challenge you all to read the following article, or any of the other well written and thoughtfully analyzed articles on this, and CAREFULLY consider, point by point what this thing, and this administration is trying to do to us! If you value your freedom, and way of life, as an American and Patriot - please lets do all we can to stop this. If this thing gets passed, there can no longer be any safe dissent on the subject - in fact such dissent is defined as terrorism in this law. And, woosh - you can be silently swept away, with no one ever knowing what happened to you, and tried in a secret court. I'm not kidding! Neither is this bill. Holy shit, what's to become of us!? This is the most serious threat to every American we have perhaps ever seen...

http://www.rense.com/general34/takeover.htm

Ahh fuck, I meant to post this not as a new thread, but under the existing one.. maybe a moderator can fix this?
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:11 AM   #20
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This thread bump is dedicated to Elfyx of Jersey City, NJ.
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Old 02-12-2003, 01:21 PM   #21
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Re: Potential "Patriot Act" Expansion

Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Congressional aides said they had not been consulted by the Justice Department on the development of such a bill
That's what I tell people when they call!
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Old 02-12-2003, 01:52 PM   #22
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Normal Re: Unconstitutional!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx

http://www.rense.com/general34/takeover.htm

What?!? That's horrible if they'll get away with it.
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Old 02-12-2003, 04:05 PM   #23
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Re: Unconstitutional!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx


http://www.rense.com/general34/takeover.htm

THis site seems somewhat slanted in their beliefs. Anyone found anything a little less biased?

Peace
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:29 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Unconstitutional!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


THis site seems somewhat slanted in their beliefs. Anyone found anything a little less biased?

Peace
The article on RENSE is a repost written by Alex Jones. It has been posted on other websites. That said, I think the article stands well on its own. BUT! By all means make your own conclusions! It is what I challenge everybody to do. My greatest fear is that people will not bother understanding this legislation or voicing their opinions on it. It is important to understand this bill very well from all angles, which is why I am reading it myself in addition to reviewing the analysis of others. Interestingly, I have not been able to find many "positive" takes on the draft.

ACLU:
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Safe...ID=11817&c=206

The Center for Public Integrity: (This is to whom the secret bill was leaked, by someone in the Justice Department who obviously is pretty uncomfortable about it)
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtawe...L3=0&L4=0&L5=0

The bill itself in PDF form: (I'm still working through reading this over - It's pretty huge - about 120 pages. I'm about halfway through it, and I feel like I'm reading an Orwell novel.)
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtawe...0703_Doc_1.pdf
http://www.infowars.com/pdfs/patriot2-hi.pdf

The Department of Justice Response:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/03-082-opa.pdf

The Bill of Rights Defense Committee:
http://www.bordc.org/

NOW: Transcript - Chuck Lewis | PBS: (An excellent and well reasoned piece, as unbiased as its gonna get I think)
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/tr...pt_lewis2.html

WIRED:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,57636,00.html

In addition, you can find many more references just by looking around. I'll post some more as I find and read them. But, nearly every initial analysis being made right now, by those concerned with civil liberties, and the Bill of Rights, is that this thing is a death knell to American Civil Liberties. If, by some chance, it is not - that this draft is in fact tempered and reasonable, then we ought to come to that conclusion ourselves as well. However, that position stands heavily on governmental oversight and review. By all accounts, many of which are listed in Alex Jone's article, the governmental authorities are given sweeping immunities and secrecy in this bill. It's not a good sign...

As always, peace
Elfyx
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:44 PM   #25
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Elfyx

Thanks....You obviously care a great deal about this topic. Thank you for sharing.

Peace
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Old 02-12-2003, 05:49 PM   #26
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This is what bothers me :

LEWIS:
And if I'm afraid they're waiting for a war or something and then they're gonna pop this baby out and then try to jam it through.

MOYERS: You mean that if it were not rolled out and discussed publicly until the United States has had war in Iraq, people might not pay as much attention to it as they would now.

LEWIS: They wouldn't pay as much attention and you know, our worries and our fears are gonna be different than they are now. And there will be less of all these things will melt away. These are nice concerns about liberties but we'll be at war. And we'll have presidents and attorneys general and other government officials telling us things. And I just see a I see that it wouldn't work quite as easily for them if it comes out in the next few weeks as opposed to then.
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Old 02-14-2003, 01:14 AM   #27
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Damning Article

Okay, I will present another article for anyone who wishes to read it. I know that I will receive a lot of backlash for it too - but - I've got to stand up to what I see going on. Facts are facts, and even if the dots don't line up to construct this picture - well then I'll be all the more relieved for it - but, I will not take the chance and compromise my very being knowing that I didn't stand up for what I personally believe in.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=117
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:47 AM   #28
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...

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak
up, because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I
wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I
was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to
speak up
for me.
--- Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
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Old 02-14-2003, 06:32 AM   #29
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Re: Damning Article

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx
Okay, I will present another article for anyone who wishes to read it. I know that I will receive a lot of backlash for it too - but - I've got to stand up to what I see going on. Facts are facts, and even if the dots don't line up to construct this picture - well then I'll be all the more relieved for it - but, I will not take the chance and compromise my very being knowing that I didn't stand up for what I personally believe in.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=117
Why would you think this, other than the site also believes Bigfoot is real?

Sounds like a respected source of information...
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Old 02-14-2003, 08:52 AM   #30
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Dreadsox,

It doesn't matter what website you read about this bill. The fact remains that this is the biggest attack on America. I cannot believe what I've read. The sad part is that most Americans don't read or watch anything other than mainstream media and wouldn't even know about this bill even if it was passed.
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