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Old 04-07-2003, 03:16 PM   #16
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Hmm, I disagreed with the USA and the UK going to war so let's see if I fit that box:

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite
Diamond did not call anyone any names.. Do you disagree that the labels he put out there are incorrect or somehow misconstrued?.. As far as collectively grouping them into the Anti-War Cult, He did no such thing.. I think it was Klaus that drew that conclusion. But even if he did intend to group them all into the anti-war Contingent, Again.. Is he incorrect?..

1. Check the Sponsors of the World Wide Protests.. Socialists With Agendas.. Check Mark.

2. International Left Front... The French and Germans.. Check Mark

3. Anti Capitalist Crowd... World Workers Union Check Mark again.

4. The Saddam Sympathasizers... This is not difficult. Case Closed.

These are not inflammatory names, they are accurate and well.. reflect the reality. The truth does hurt sometimes.. If you ask me, which none of you will, Diamond could have included many more generalized groups.

Mr. Pink
1. I was never a sponsor of those big worldwide protests. Protesting just to protest does not help the cause.
Uncheck!

2. International Left Front. Last elections (2 months ago) I voted at the right side of the political spectrum (as opposed to left, not to wrong).
Uncheck!

3. Anti Capitalist Crowd. I love money and many big corporations are no threat to the world (although some do need close monitoring).
Uncheck!

4. Saddam Symphatisers. I rather saw him go 12 years ago than now. Said enough.
Uncheck!

Hmm, so I don't belong in any category. Seems like it was inaccurate, so the original statement could be seen as namecalling.

Now for the pro-war group...

Marty (who will stop here)
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Old 04-07-2003, 03:29 PM   #17
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Proper closure to this war is more than the absense of Saddam Hussein. It's a democratically elected government of a stable democratic state. This has to be Iraqi people chosen by the voters of Iraq. Americans can't run in there and annoint themselves the new rulers of Iraq. This will be "occupation" not "liberation". If we don't truly liberate Iraq we will screw up big time. There will have to be some sort of closure to hostilities, most likely a peace treaty. Someone has to sign this. Someone has to be elected to lead the people and then this new government must be recognized by other powers. This particularly includes Iraq's Arabic and Moslem neighbors. If Americans barge into Iraq and take over the government, this will be a massive screw-up, and I just don't think this sort of margin for error exists.
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Old 04-07-2003, 03:34 PM   #18
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the government the US helps set up does not necessarily need to be democratic, we've made that clear.
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Old 04-07-2003, 03:52 PM   #19
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Historically it has not worked successfully in the long term when the US has decided to force a government onto its people. Our best interests are only served as a stop gap measure and ultimately have unforeseen consequences.

I was never positive that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction. As do we. It depends on the side you stand whether you think the other side should be allowed to have them. In the end, as afraid as we are that another country is gunning for us, the US is still the only country in the world that has dropped a weapon of mass destruction on another country.

I am still against the war and finding a cache of chemical missiles doesn't change that fact. Our responsibility is to be responsible citizens of the world. For the US to help set up the rules [UN] and then to take our ball and leave when those same rules are inconvenient, unfortunately shows a poor aspect of our true nature and for many countries, it is a difficult aspect to see past.

As for me it is a sad precursor to how Bush and his administration are steering the future of not just our country but so follows world events.
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Old 04-07-2003, 04:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by YellowKite
I was never positive that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction. As do we.

I'm really confused about what you mean by this statement. Can you explain it more?
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Old 04-07-2003, 04:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

I'm really confused about what you mean by this statement. Can you explain it more?
Point being - that whether Saddam has the weapons they said he did, to me, isn't the issue of why I am against the war. Nor do I believe it is the sole reason, or even primary reason, Bush started the war.

We - the US and other of our allies - also have these weapons and many more. In fact we probably 'invented' or 'improved' most of them.
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by YellowKite


We - the US and other of our allies - also have these weapons and many more. In fact we probably 'invented' or 'improved' most of them.
umm, yes
but Saddam's actions prove that he knows no restraint in using these weapons

to put it mildy



it's about the same as declaring that Mark Chapman should be allowed to own a gun since I also own a gun (not that I own a gun, but still)
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:16 PM   #23
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the difference is that the u.s., great britain, russia, and israel never used chemical weapons. period. iraq has.

if you want to get into wwII history and why the u.s. dropped atomic bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki, this is not the place for it; this discussion is about iraq.

verte76:
when did the u.s. say it was going to occupy iraq? please provide me with the details regarding this plan, because I have not heard of any such thing. in fact, I have heard that once the regime in iraq is defeated, there will be elections held so that the people of iraq can elect their own leader, and the u.s. will get the hell out of there, as well we should.
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:29 PM   #24
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"Smoking gun" WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide
Mon Apr 7, 1:52 PM ET

NEAR NAJAF, Iraq (AFP) - A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had said might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as feared.

A military intelligence officer for the US 101st Airborne Division's aviation brigade, Captain Adam Mastrianni, told AFP that comprehensive tests determined the presence of the pesticide compounds.

Initial tests had reportedly detected traces of sarin -- a powerful toxin that quickly affects the nervous system -- after US soldiers guarding the facility near Hindiyah, 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of Baghdad, fell ill.

Mastrianni said: "They thought it was a nerve agent. That's what it tested. But it is pesticide."

He said a "theatre-level chemical testing team" made up of biologists and chemists had finally disproved the preliminary field tests results and established that pesticide was the substance involved.

Mastrianni added that sick soldiers, who had become nauseous, dizzy and developed skin blotches, had all recovered.

The turnaround was an embarrassment for the US forces in the region, which had been quick to say that they thought they had finally found the proof they have been actively looking for that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction.

A spokesman for the US army's 3rd Infantry Division, Major Ross Coffman, had told journalists at Baghdad's airport that the site "could be a smoking gun".

"We are talking about finding a site of possible weapons of mass destruction," he added.

The fact that the coalition forces have come up with no clear evidence of WMD after capturing much of Iraq in 19 days of fighting has raised questions over the war's justification.

Melon
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Old 04-07-2003, 05:34 PM   #25
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Actually, now that I look at this, I think this is a previous site thought to have WMD. These news sites aren't terribly clear at times. Let's see if this new one has anything.

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Old 04-07-2003, 05:40 PM   #26
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could be; I'm sure saddam is interested in keeping his gardening in order.
doesn't explain the missles loaded with chemicals though.


by the way, what farmers keep their pesticides locked up in underground bunkers?
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Old 04-07-2003, 06:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by JOFO
if you want to get into wwII history and why the u.s. dropped atomic bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki, this is not the place for it; this discussion is about iraq.

this really purturbed me. while this thread may be about iraq, that does NOT mean the United States' history is exempt from being mentioned. when making momentous decisions, like going to war, it's very, VERY important to keep history in mind - so as to not repeat mistakes.


yes, we are the only country to use nuclear weapons, but i'd say that we've more than learned from our action -that's an area in which we are VERY history conscious.
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Old 04-07-2003, 06:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly



this really purturbed me. while this thread may be about iraq, that does NOT mean the United States' history is exempt from being mentioned. when making momentous decisions, like going to war, it's very, VERY important to keep history in mind - so as to not repeat mistakes.


yes, we are the only country to use nuclear weapons, but i'd say that we've more than learned from our action -that's an area in which we are VERY history conscious.
well, I said that in order to keep the thread from getting out of control and spinning in a million different directions, as most threads like this do. you are right; the u.s. history regarding war is in fact very much a part of this discussion. however, why don't we start a seperate thread entitled "why the u.s. dropped the bombs on japan in wwII". surely that topic will generate about a thousand responses.
and I don't mean to purturb anyone.
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Old 04-07-2003, 06:38 PM   #29
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The chemicals were not found on bombs. That was an overzealous reporter or overzealous soldier. They were in buried barrels. That is not to say they might be.
I would not be surprised if they are.

KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. troops were testing suspicious materials as possible chemical weapons agents at an agricultural complex in central Iraq, U.S. military officials said Monday.

Samples of the materials are being studied, and no conclusive determination has been made, said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakly of the Army's 101st Airborne Division. The materials, stored in barrels and buried, had not been weaponized and might simply be pesticides, Freakly said.

On Friday, elements of the 101st Airborne Division visited two sites in an area south of Baghdad near Karbala. One site had been used for military training and the other as an agricultural compound.

At the military camp, tests found no conclusive evidence of chemical weapons being present. In fact, tests there indicated pesticides were likely present, Freakly said.

At the agricultural compound, the division found 10 25-gallon drums and three 55-gallon drums buried within bunkers 4 to 6 feet deep, Freakly said. The 63rd Medical Company tested substances found in the drums to see whether chemical agents were present. Initial tests proved inconclusive, he said.

Monday, a new, higher-level test was administered using special testing vehicles called FOX vehicles, Freakly said. Those tests indicated the presence of nerve and blister agents, but the tests sometimes show false positives, according to Freakly.

The substances may be pesticides or they may be chemical agents that are "non-weaponized," he said. "It's a liquid chemical, but it hasn't been put in a delivery means or anything that could be dispersed against our soldiers."

If it were weaponized, Freakly said, "We would see it in probably an artillery projectile or in an artillery missile, or perhaps in an aircraft bomb or something that the enemy would spray troops with."

Freakly also said the 101st Airborne found a large cache of conventional weapons at the agricultural site.

As part of Iraq's cease-fire agreement ending the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Baghdad promised to destroy all its weapons of mass destruction, biological, chemical or nuclear, and submit to United Nations weapons inspections.

The Bush administration has insisted Iraq has not accounted for its alleged weapons of mass destruction.

Asked whether it appeared that U.N. weapons inspectors had visited the site, Freakly said he would find it "hard to believe" that inspectors would have found the two sites, which are located behind a civilian complex near the Euphrates River.

Former chief U.N. weapons inspector Terry Taylor said it is likely Iraq has stashes of chemical agents hidden at civilian sites "which they would pull out to fill munitions at the right time." It is too soon to tell whether that is the case in this instance, he added.

Some soldiers involved in the raid at the military camp reported feeling ill, but it appears they were suffering from dehydration, Freakly said. They're all feeling fine now, he added.

Asked whether the found materials were a "smoking gun," a military official at the Pentagon said, "It has potential."

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declined comment on the find, saying more tests must be conducted.

edited for link
www.cnn.com
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Old 04-07-2003, 06:42 PM   #30
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yes, but there are 2 separate incidents here: the barrles found in
karbala, and the missles loaded with chemicals outside baghdad.
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