Se7en
Rock n' Roll Doggie
i don't think god gives a shit.
MERGED: Theocracy Watch: Afghanistan+US Sees No Problem With Religion In Constitution
- Thread starter A_Wanderer
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
nbcrusader said:
Well, come on. If it's inerrant "just because," why isn't the Koran inerrant? Because you're not a Muslim?
Let's face it: if you had been born in that part of the globe, you probably would be a Muslim yourself.
And there's the can of worms...both can't be inerrant at the same time. Either one is right or both are wrong.
Melon
Sue DeNym
Refugee
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
melon said:
That is very true.
But if both are wrong, why follow any[/] of it?
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
nbcrusader said:
If you've chosen one, than both are not wrong--to you.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
I just hope and pray that no one goes after him 
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence, and he will be released soon, an official said.
The official told The Associated Press that the case had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Abdul Rahman would be released.
"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.
"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," he added.
The court, and Afghan President Hamid Karzai, had been under intense international pressure to drop the case against Rahman, who faced a possible death sentence for his conversion.
Some Islamic clerics had called for him to be put to death, saying Rahman would face danger from his countrymen if he were released.
Earlier Sunday he was moved to a notorious maximum-security prison outside Kabul that is also home to hundreds of Taliban and al-Qaida militants. The move to Policharki Prison came after detainees threatened his life at an overcrowded police holding facility in central Kabul, a court official said on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media.
Gen. Shahmir Amirpur, who is in charge of Policharki, confirmed the move and said Rahman had also been begging his guards to provide him with a Bible.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned Karzai last Thursday and asked for a "favorable resolution" to the case. Karzai also heard from Pope Benedict XVI, who urged Rahman's release out of respect for religious freedom.
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence, and he will be released soon, an official said.
The official told The Associated Press that the case had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Abdul Rahman would be released.
"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.
"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," he added.
The court, and Afghan President Hamid Karzai, had been under intense international pressure to drop the case against Rahman, who faced a possible death sentence for his conversion.
Some Islamic clerics had called for him to be put to death, saying Rahman would face danger from his countrymen if he were released.
Earlier Sunday he was moved to a notorious maximum-security prison outside Kabul that is also home to hundreds of Taliban and al-Qaida militants. The move to Policharki Prison came after detainees threatened his life at an overcrowded police holding facility in central Kabul, a court official said on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media.
Gen. Shahmir Amirpur, who is in charge of Policharki, confirmed the move and said Rahman had also been begging his guards to provide him with a Bible.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned Karzai last Thursday and asked for a "favorable resolution" to the case. Karzai also heard from Pope Benedict XVI, who urged Rahman's release out of respect for religious freedom.
AussieU2fanman
Refugee
Unless he puts himself under exile he'll be murdered I reckon...
How much of an input does the US have over the constitution?
With 'Sharia' always incorporated into government and judicial systems, how can these countries possibly progress? We'll just keep seeing more shit like this.
How much of an input does the US have over the constitution?
With 'Sharia' always incorporated into government and judicial systems, how can these countries possibly progress? We'll just keep seeing more shit like this.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
MrsSpringsteen said:
A simple solution that saves Mr. Rahman's life while leaving intact the Afghan death for conversion law.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
nbcrusader said:
Yes, as long as their legal code is based on Sharia, the law will stay the same. Bad news for other converts.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
It's worth pointing out that even in secular Turkey proselatizing (sorry, have trouble spelling that word) is illegal. Muslims just don't take kindly to this sort of thing.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
That is a constant in the Muslim world. Historically, religious groups would eliminate foreign faiths as a way to preserve their own (see Hebrew conquest of Canaan). It seems as if this idea has continued through today for Islam.
OP
OP
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
There is a fundamental incompatibiltiy between the Islamic theistic and humanistic version of human rights
Contrasts sharply with
I can respect a persons right to practice any religion, when that religion punishes somebody for trying to practice their human rights it looses all respect and should get contempt - without exception: this applies to any religion.
Those who will scold Afghanistan for their treatment of the Christian convert but not even lament the execution of homosexuals in nations such as Iran should consider the real motivations for conviction against only certain deprivations of liberty.
Those who would forfeit a right to free speech in the name of theist harmony who object to this must also ask the same questions.
Sounds relatively innofensive, freedom of concience and religion (or lack thereof) is an ideal that can extend to most all human beings - one is not born to religion.
Contrasts sharply with
Fundamentally opposed to a humanistic worldview - in this the only religious freedom is a so-called "reversion" to Islam. Death to apostates in Sharia cannot be changed, Prince Charles was told as much by his interfaith gathering at Clarence House a while back when getting a clarification on the matter. I certainly can't get behind that.
I can respect a persons right to practice any religion, when that religion punishes somebody for trying to practice their human rights it looses all respect and should get contempt - without exception: this applies to any religion.
Those who will scold Afghanistan for their treatment of the Christian convert but not even lament the execution of homosexuals in nations such as Iran should consider the real motivations for conviction against only certain deprivations of liberty.
Those who would forfeit a right to free speech in the name of theist harmony who object to this must also ask the same questions.
Last edited:
OP
OP
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
An administration that has taken a strong stand of sitting on the fence over the Mohammed Cartoons and pushing a line of thinking that protects the religious from others thought and expression.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Of course, this means that we can't expect Muslims to adopt a humanistic way to run their own countries--at least not the ones who have a tradition of Sharia law. As Yolland has pointed out this excludes both Indonesia and Bangladesh. There's no way to introduce our Western model of democracy in a country like Afghanistan.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Justin24 said:
Well, we're not necessarily talking about nomads. People in all of the Islamic countries live in cities and are not nomads. This includes Saudi Arabia. I'm arguing that they'll never accept Western ideas about democracy. The idea that we can introduce our version of democracy into Afghanistan is a pipe dream. You can't have your cake and eat it too. They're under Sharia law.
The problem I see is that the people are being brainwashed by these Clerics and they need to be stopped. I am sure if the clerics or people went to these different western civilizations they would tone down their retoric (or how ever you spell it.)
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:
What does nomadic have to do with anything?BonoVoxSupastar said:
I should have used nomadic in a better way. I ment it as how there still following an ancient way and how they need to catch up and re-discover their religon.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
These people don't think they're being brainwashed. They are Muslim, and these people are their teachers. The Islamic religion doesn't have a priesthood the way Christians do. Their powerful religious people are the same people as their powerful political people are. Thus you can't separate mosque and state the way you can separate church and state in the West. If you had been born in Afghanistan, you'd be Muslim, not Christian. It's a whole different mindset.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Justin24 said:
Nomadic pertains to a lifestyle. They move around from place to place, and don't live in one place. The people we're talking about do live in cities. They practice the Islamic religion in a way that's not compatable with Western democratic ideals because they base their legal codes on Sharia, which is theocratic.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Here's the latest on this case.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39239
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39239
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
Law, family, and society discourage conversion in Muslim nations
By Jasper Mortimer, Associated Press | March 28, 2006
CAIRO -- In the Middle East, Jordan is known as a tolerant country, but when a Muslim man converted to Christianity two years ago, a court convicted him of apostasy, took away his right to work, and annulled his marriage.
Such prosecutions are rare because they're hardly ever needed. The law heavily discourages -- or outright forbids -- conversion by Muslims in most nations in the region. But weighing against it even more heavily are the powerful influences of family and society.
The sensitivity of the issue is highlighted by the case of an Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity -- creating an outcry in the United States and other nations, which pressured Afghanistan for his release.
But Afghanistan isn't the only US-allied government where Muslim converts to Christianity are threatened with execution.
Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. There are no churches and missionaries are barred. Regular criticism in US State Department reports on religious freedom have had no effect on Saudi policy.
While Islam accepts Christianity as a fellow monotheistic religion, Islamic Sharia law considers conversion to any religion apostasy, and most Muslim scholars agree the punishment is death. Saudi Arabia considers Sharia the law of the land, although there have been no reported executions of converts from Islam in recent memory.
The only other nation in the region that carries the death penalty for apostasy is Sudan. Although no executions have been reported recently, a Sudanese man who allegedly converted was arrested in 2004 and reportedly tortured in custody, according to the State Department.
In Kuwait, a court convicted a Shi'ite man who publicly proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, but didn't sentence him since the criminal code did not set a punishment.
Other countries in the region, such as Egypt, do not have laws criminalizing apostasy, but converts still can face prosecution.
In May, an Egyptian man who converted to Christianity was arrested on suspicion of ''contempt for religion," a charge that entails a prison sentence of up to five years, said Hossam Bahgat, director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. The man, who has not been identified, remains in custody without charge, Bahgat said.
Authorities in Egypt and most other Arab countries will not recognize conversion from Islam in official documents, such as identity papers, which usually state a person's faith.
Even if a convert is not prosecuted, ''the issue is the pressure they are going to face from their families, the religious establishment, their friends, and associates," said Fadi al-Qadi, a Middle East spokesman for York-based Human Rights Watch. ''It would be overwhelming. They would be really isolated."
There are exceptions. In strongly secular Turkey, a convert can walk into a Demographic Records office, sign a declaration saying they have converted from Islam to Christianity, and leave an hour later with a new identity card reflecting the change. While Islam is the religion of 99 percent of Turkey's 71 million people, it has no official religion.
''Turkey is a democratic country and, according to law, you can choose whatever you want," said Soner Tufan, a convert from Islam, who runs a Christian radio station, Radio Shema, in the capital, Ankara.
But, he said, ''if someone converts, they can suffer some problems from their friends, relatives, and neighbors" -- or face difficulties getting a job in the civil service.
In Tunisia and Algeria, the Islamic authorities take a dim view of conversion, but the secular governments do not prohibit it and it does occur.
Most often, the issue of conversion reaches the courts in the context of marriage. While Islam accepts a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman -- one of the Prophet Mohammed's wives was Christian -- it does not tolerate a Muslim woman marrying a Christian man.
The November 2004 case of a Jordanian man convicted of apostasy came after his wife -- who remained Muslim -- and her family reported he had converted.
The man, whom court records did not identify, appealed his conviction to a higher court but lost.
In Lebanon, where Christians are estimated to be about 35 percent of the population, the state does not forbid a change of religion, but Muslim authorities do and will not perform a wedding between Christian men and Muslim women.
By Jasper Mortimer, Associated Press | March 28, 2006
CAIRO -- In the Middle East, Jordan is known as a tolerant country, but when a Muslim man converted to Christianity two years ago, a court convicted him of apostasy, took away his right to work, and annulled his marriage.
Such prosecutions are rare because they're hardly ever needed. The law heavily discourages -- or outright forbids -- conversion by Muslims in most nations in the region. But weighing against it even more heavily are the powerful influences of family and society.
The sensitivity of the issue is highlighted by the case of an Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity -- creating an outcry in the United States and other nations, which pressured Afghanistan for his release.
But Afghanistan isn't the only US-allied government where Muslim converts to Christianity are threatened with execution.
Saudi Arabia neither permits conversion from Islam nor allows other religions in the kingdom. There are no churches and missionaries are barred. Regular criticism in US State Department reports on religious freedom have had no effect on Saudi policy.
While Islam accepts Christianity as a fellow monotheistic religion, Islamic Sharia law considers conversion to any religion apostasy, and most Muslim scholars agree the punishment is death. Saudi Arabia considers Sharia the law of the land, although there have been no reported executions of converts from Islam in recent memory.
The only other nation in the region that carries the death penalty for apostasy is Sudan. Although no executions have been reported recently, a Sudanese man who allegedly converted was arrested in 2004 and reportedly tortured in custody, according to the State Department.
In Kuwait, a court convicted a Shi'ite man who publicly proclaimed his conversion to Christianity, but didn't sentence him since the criminal code did not set a punishment.
Other countries in the region, such as Egypt, do not have laws criminalizing apostasy, but converts still can face prosecution.
In May, an Egyptian man who converted to Christianity was arrested on suspicion of ''contempt for religion," a charge that entails a prison sentence of up to five years, said Hossam Bahgat, director of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. The man, who has not been identified, remains in custody without charge, Bahgat said.
Authorities in Egypt and most other Arab countries will not recognize conversion from Islam in official documents, such as identity papers, which usually state a person's faith.
Even if a convert is not prosecuted, ''the issue is the pressure they are going to face from their families, the religious establishment, their friends, and associates," said Fadi al-Qadi, a Middle East spokesman for York-based Human Rights Watch. ''It would be overwhelming. They would be really isolated."
There are exceptions. In strongly secular Turkey, a convert can walk into a Demographic Records office, sign a declaration saying they have converted from Islam to Christianity, and leave an hour later with a new identity card reflecting the change. While Islam is the religion of 99 percent of Turkey's 71 million people, it has no official religion.
''Turkey is a democratic country and, according to law, you can choose whatever you want," said Soner Tufan, a convert from Islam, who runs a Christian radio station, Radio Shema, in the capital, Ankara.
But, he said, ''if someone converts, they can suffer some problems from their friends, relatives, and neighbors" -- or face difficulties getting a job in the civil service.
In Tunisia and Algeria, the Islamic authorities take a dim view of conversion, but the secular governments do not prohibit it and it does occur.
Most often, the issue of conversion reaches the courts in the context of marriage. While Islam accepts a Muslim man marrying a Christian woman -- one of the Prophet Mohammed's wives was Christian -- it does not tolerate a Muslim woman marrying a Christian man.
The November 2004 case of a Jordanian man convicted of apostasy came after his wife -- who remained Muslim -- and her family reported he had converted.
The man, whom court records did not identify, appealed his conviction to a higher court but lost.
In Lebanon, where Christians are estimated to be about 35 percent of the population, the state does not forbid a change of religion, but Muslim authorities do and will not perform a wedding between Christian men and Muslim women.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
Here's the latest in this story.
Afghan Christian convert granted asylum in Italy
Friday, March 31, 2006
Analysts say Karzai might still face anger at home and his rivals could try to take advantage of the row
ROME/KABUL - Reuters
An Afghan Christian convert who had faced the death penalty for abandoning Islam arrived in Italy and was granted asylum, Italy said on Wednesday.
Abdur Rahman, 40, was jailed this month for converting to Christianity and could have faced trial under Islamic sharia law that stipulates death as punishment for apostasy.
He was freed from prison on Tuesday after pressure from Western states whose troops helped bring the Afghan government to power.
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said he had been granted asylum in Italy.
"He is already here... He is currently being looked after by the Interior Ministry," Berlusconi told reporters in Rome.
Berlusconi said the man's exact whereabouts were being kept secret. Italian news agency ANSA quoted unnamed sources who saw Rahman in the past few hours as saying he was grateful and very happy to be in Italy.
News of Rahman's departure from Afghanistan came hours after members of the Afghan parliament condemned his release and said he should not be allowed to leave the country.
Asked whether he feared a negative reaction from the Muslim world, Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said: "No, not particularly, also because Italy has always been committed to defending inalienable human rights, including one's freedom to believe in their own god."
Rahman's jailing raised a storm of protest in the West, with Italy, Germany, the United States and Canada -- all countries with troops in Afghanistan -- leading calls for his religious freedom to be respected and for him to be released.
Pope Benedict also called for clemency.
In Italy, politicians from all colors gave their backing to Berlusconi's asylum offer, even though one member of the center-left opposition accused him of "propaganda" ahead of a general election on April 9-10.
Criticism in Afghan parliament:
In Afghanistan, however, many religious conservatives had demanded Rahman be punished under Islamic law, with some warning of rebellion if the government gave in to Western pressure and released him.
Analysts say President Hamid Karzai might still face anger at home and his rivals could try to take advantage of the row.
The lower house of parliament held an unscheduled debate on the case and Rahman's release was widely criticized.
"The release of Abdur Rahman was contrary to the existing laws of Afghanistan," Yunus Qanuni, president of the lower house of parliament, told the assembly, before Italy's asylum offer and Rahman's departure had been confirmed.
"Abdur Rahman should not flee and should not be allowed to leave Afghanistan."
Rahman became a Christian while working for an aid group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan 15 years ago. He later lived in Germany before returning to Afghanistan.
He was detained after his relatives told authorities he had converted to Christianity following a dispute involving two daughters. Relatives said Rahman had suffered from mental problems, although he denied that.
Qanuni said members of the Supreme Court and prosecutors should be summoned to explain Rahman's release. Several members of parliament said Rahman should be executed. President Karzai has made no public comment on the case.
Religion is a sensitive issue in deeply conservative Afghanistan.
Violent protests erupted in February over the printing of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed by European newspapers. Last year a magazine report that U.S. military interrogators had desecrated the Koran also sparked violence.
About 1,000 people rallied in a northern city on Monday to demand Rahman be executed but there have been no protests since.
Afghan Christian convert granted asylum in Italy
Friday, March 31, 2006
Analysts say Karzai might still face anger at home and his rivals could try to take advantage of the row
ROME/KABUL - Reuters
An Afghan Christian convert who had faced the death penalty for abandoning Islam arrived in Italy and was granted asylum, Italy said on Wednesday.
Abdur Rahman, 40, was jailed this month for converting to Christianity and could have faced trial under Islamic sharia law that stipulates death as punishment for apostasy.
He was freed from prison on Tuesday after pressure from Western states whose troops helped bring the Afghan government to power.
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said he had been granted asylum in Italy.
"He is already here... He is currently being looked after by the Interior Ministry," Berlusconi told reporters in Rome.
Berlusconi said the man's exact whereabouts were being kept secret. Italian news agency ANSA quoted unnamed sources who saw Rahman in the past few hours as saying he was grateful and very happy to be in Italy.
News of Rahman's departure from Afghanistan came hours after members of the Afghan parliament condemned his release and said he should not be allowed to leave the country.
Asked whether he feared a negative reaction from the Muslim world, Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said: "No, not particularly, also because Italy has always been committed to defending inalienable human rights, including one's freedom to believe in their own god."
Rahman's jailing raised a storm of protest in the West, with Italy, Germany, the United States and Canada -- all countries with troops in Afghanistan -- leading calls for his religious freedom to be respected and for him to be released.
Pope Benedict also called for clemency.
In Italy, politicians from all colors gave their backing to Berlusconi's asylum offer, even though one member of the center-left opposition accused him of "propaganda" ahead of a general election on April 9-10.
Criticism in Afghan parliament:
In Afghanistan, however, many religious conservatives had demanded Rahman be punished under Islamic law, with some warning of rebellion if the government gave in to Western pressure and released him.
Analysts say President Hamid Karzai might still face anger at home and his rivals could try to take advantage of the row.
The lower house of parliament held an unscheduled debate on the case and Rahman's release was widely criticized.
"The release of Abdur Rahman was contrary to the existing laws of Afghanistan," Yunus Qanuni, president of the lower house of parliament, told the assembly, before Italy's asylum offer and Rahman's departure had been confirmed.
"Abdur Rahman should not flee and should not be allowed to leave Afghanistan."
Rahman became a Christian while working for an aid group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan 15 years ago. He later lived in Germany before returning to Afghanistan.
He was detained after his relatives told authorities he had converted to Christianity following a dispute involving two daughters. Relatives said Rahman had suffered from mental problems, although he denied that.
Qanuni said members of the Supreme Court and prosecutors should be summoned to explain Rahman's release. Several members of parliament said Rahman should be executed. President Karzai has made no public comment on the case.
Religion is a sensitive issue in deeply conservative Afghanistan.
Violent protests erupted in February over the printing of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed by European newspapers. Last year a magazine report that U.S. military interrogators had desecrated the Koran also sparked violence.
About 1,000 people rallied in a northern city on Monday to demand Rahman be executed but there have been no protests since.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
MrsSpringsteen said:
Similar things happen in Egypt as well. While visiting a small church in Ismailia, I met two men who were kidnapped after their conversion to Christianity in an attempt to force them to recant. Job loss, non-recognition by the government, etc. all occur.
The Coptic Christians will actually tattoo a cross on their wrists to discourage forcible reconversions to Islam.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
3 Irishmen and a Dutchman Walk Into A Sphere - General Discussion Thread Part III- Latest: Headache in a Suitcase
-
-
-
Hello everyone I'm years late but at least I've found you now!!
- Latest: Headache in a Suitcase
-
-
-
-
