MERGED-->The Pope insults Islam + Turkish official compares Pope... - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-16-2006, 08:36 PM   #91
Refugee
 
toscano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,032
Local Time: 04:56 AM
Father Raymond J. de Souza speaks truth to power in the National Post

The eruption of rage in some quarters of the Islamic world against Pope Benedict XVI requires that several tough things be said.

Painful though it may be, speaking frankly is necessary if there is to be honest and open dialogue between the Abrahamic faiths. Given the reaction to Benedict's address, though, one wonders if that dialogue is even possible.

[...]

Benedict was quoting a 14th-century Christian emperor, under siege from the Ottomans, defending the position that spreading religion by violence is contrary to the nature of God. The Emperor, quite reasonably given his circumstances, suggested to his Persian interlocutor such a view did not prevail in Islamic thought.

In response to this historical excursus in an academic lecture by one of the world's most erudite theologians, we are witnessing a wave of madness and malice, no doubt an embarrassment to millions of Muslims.

Roman Catholics are likely angry. Relations between adherents of the two religions simply cannot develop without all conducting themselves as mature adults.

It does a disservice to children to call the wild-eyed statements and deranged behaviour of the past days childish.

It is not only the obscenity of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist terrorist band suppressed in several Muslim states, demanding an apology from anyone, let alone the Holy Father.

It is not only the grandstanding Pakistani politicians passing resolutions condemning a papal speech few read, and even fewer understood. It is not only the extraneous charges about the Holocaust and Hitler by the agitated and excited.

It is that we have seen this before.

When Pope John Paul II made his epic pilgrimage to the Holy Land, Palestinian Muslim representatives jostled him on the Temple Mount, shouted at him, and, in one episode of maximum rudeness, abandoned him on stage during an interfaith meeting. Bashir Assad, the Syrian President, treated him to an anti-Semitic rant when the late pope visited Syria.

Catholic goodwill toward global Islam is severely attenuated by such continued maltreatment of our universal pastors.

And it is well past time that the maltreatment of history ceased too.

The irony of the accusations that Pope Benedict has a "Crusader mentality" is that he was speaking about the period in which the Crusades themselves took place.

Catholics have for quite some time now confessed the sinful and wicked shadows that marked the Crusades, but any suggestion the whole affair was about rapacious Christians setting upon irenic Muslims must be rejected.

After all, the formerly Christian lands of North Africa, the Middle East and Asia Minor were not converted to Islam by Muslim missionary martyrs. Those lands were conquered by the sword.

The Crusader idea was that they could be recovered. Who wronged who first is a fruitless historical inquiry, but historical honesty requires an admission that Muslims wronged as much as they were wronged against.

Actually, the recapture of all the lands conquered and Islamized by the warriors of jihad was never part of the Crusader program. But in any case, this is an excellent and, under the circumstances, courageous piece. Read it all.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...d-68a1a7e1c804
__________________

__________________
toscano is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 08:45 PM   #92
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


After all, the formerly Christian lands of North Africa, the Middle East and Asia Minor were not converted to Islam by Muslim missionary martyrs. Those lands were conquered by the sword.

And this little fact is not taught to today's university students.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 09:33 PM   #93
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:56 PM
And why is Latin America Catholic?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:19 PM   #94
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Peace is when the entire world is faithful, it's one feature that pops up a lot with these memetic viruses.
Agreed.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:41 PM   #95
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And why is Latin America Catholic?
And why is Europe even Christian, while we're at it? Christianity was forcefully imposed under many circumstances. Indeed, that's ultimately why a lot of "pagan" concepts found its way into Christianity, both in Europe and South America.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:46 PM   #96
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by toscano
Benedict was quoting a 14th-century Christian emperor, under siege from the Ottomans, defending the position that spreading religion by violence is contrary to the nature of God.
All the more amusing, considering the Inquisition and all its cruel and violent methods were in full force by the 14th century. In fact, good old "Benedict XVI" was the head of the modern-day successor to the Inquisition for over 20 years in his past life as "Cardinal Ratzinger."

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:55 PM   #97
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
And this little fact is not taught to today's university students.
Back in the Dark/Middle Ages, voluntary conversion was not even an option.

The "lucky" tribes were the ones where the chief decided to convert and then forcefully made the rest of his tribe convert with him. Holdouts who refused to openly convert were eventually killed. The "unlucky" tribes chose "heretical" sects like Arianism and were eventually forced to convert to "orthodox Christianity" by force by neighboring tribes. And then there were the few tribes that chose Judaism. I'm sure you know how they were treated for their choice.

Iceland is probably the only prominent example of peaceful conversion. The Icelandic leaders decided to put it to a vote, wishing to avoid all the bloodshed that happened in their "homeland" (Norway and Sweden) when they converted. In the end, they did choose Christianity; however, all dissenters allowed to maintain Norse beliefs in private. Quite a revolutionary bunch they were in those days.

These little facts are certainly not taught to university students either. Ultimately, medieval Christianity and medieval Islam had quite a bit in common, with the exception that Islam was considerably more tolerant of Christians and Jews than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. Everything was forged through conflict and war in these days.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 11:34 PM   #98
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:56 PM
I don't think that we should maintain the Dhimmi status under Islamic rule as a good thing by virtue of it being slightly better than death or forced conversion.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 11:40 PM   #99
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't think that we should maintain the Dhimmi status under Islamic rule as a good thing by virtue of it being slightly better than death or forced conversion.
It made sense in the Dark/Middle Ages, comparatively speaking. It makes no sense today, but considering that Muslim nations generally have no sense of freedom of religion, I guess this tradition is probably the only reason that there are even some Christians and Jews allowed to live within their countries today.

However, it must be remembered that, for medieval Jews, living in Moorish Spain or the Ottoman Empire was considered a vast improvement over living in Christian Europe, even if neither situation was ideal. It's all the more ironic, considering how those positions are completely reversed today.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 12:43 AM   #100
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 04:56 AM
"Christianity has not so much been tried and found wanting, as it has been found difficult and left untried" Chesterson
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 03:02 AM   #101
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:56 PM
Another thing common to Christianity and Communsim.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:35 AM   #102
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Way to COEXIST people...
Many of us have misunderstood the Pope's line of work in the first place. His job is not to "coexist" with the Dalai Lama or whatever religious leader out there. He is a THEOLOGIAN, he is responsible for discerning between what he holds true in his faith and what the rest of the world holds true in theirs.

He is a theologian first and foremost.
People look to him for moral clarity.
His status as a political icon is far less relevant.

But that does not mean that Catholics should be hostile towards other beliefs without any premise to justify it.

It's baffling that he has apologized to the Turks. The Pope out of all people should stand on his beliefs, regardless of what people perceive them to be.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:38 AM   #103
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Another thing common to Christianity and Communsim.
Interesting.

If I had to rename The Bible, I'd call it the Anti-Communist Manifesto. "Liberation theology" should be redefined to oppose the tenants of eminant domain, so individuals have the right to their own property. The government has no right to covet its neighbor's possessions, even if the intentions are good.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:42 AM   #104
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Back in the Dark/Middle Ages, voluntary conversion was not even an option.

The "lucky" tribes were the ones where the chief decided to convert and then forcefully made the rest of his tribe convert with him. Holdouts who refused to openly convert were eventually killed. The "unlucky" tribes chose "heretical" sects like Arianism and were eventually forced to convert to "orthodox Christianity" by force by neighboring tribes. And then there were the few tribes that chose Judaism. I'm sure you know how they were treated for their choice.

Iceland is probably the only prominent example of peaceful conversion. The Icelandic leaders decided to put it to a vote, wishing to avoid all the bloodshed that happened in their "homeland" (Norway and Sweden) when they converted. In the end, they did choose Christianity; however, all dissenters allowed to maintain Norse beliefs in private. Quite a revolutionary bunch they were in those days.

These little facts are certainly not taught to university students either. Ultimately, medieval Christianity and medieval Islam had quite a bit in common, with the exception that Islam was considerably more tolerant of Christians and Jews than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. Everything was forged through conflict and war in these days.

Melon
Much of this is true, however very few people had access to The Bible translated in their language at the time, so you had to put your faith in what the corrupt religious leaders told you. That's why we had the war over indulgences.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:48 AM   #105
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Peace is when the entire world is faithful, it's one feature that pops up a lot with these memetic viruses.
If this is the case, I ask - have we EVER had world peace?

Your answer relies heavily on your worldview as to what faithfulness really is.

Faithfulness to what...
peace?
a faith?
principles?
unity?
__________________

__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com