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Old 09-18-2006, 10:41 AM   #181
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Originally posted by melon
You're arguing apples and oranges here. The Bible makes no pronouncement on the ideal form of government...
You're probably glad that it doesn't. The Bible overall is pro-democracy, but anti-anarchy. Paul wrote about the role in government, and how it (as theocratic as it sounds) can be a servant of God when it is orderly.

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Originally posted by melon
and if you are looking for even the slightest form, I guess you could say that Jesus supported despotism:

"They watched him closely and sent agents pretending to be righteous who were to trap him in speech, in order to hand him over to the authority and power of the governor. They posed this question to him, 'Teacher, we know that what you say and teach is correct, and you show no partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it lawful for us to pay tribute to Caesar or not?' Recognizing their craftiness he said to them, 'Show me a denarius; whose image and name does it bear?' They replied, 'Caesar's.' So he said to them, 'Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.'" - Luke 20:20-25
The context is that Jesus was asked on his views about paying taxes, regardless of how immoral he found the tax collectors to be. His wild accusers accused him of telling his disciples not to pay taxes, but yes, I think we have some common ground in regards to no absolute principle regarding the economy found in the Bible. However, Karl Marx hated everything about the Bible, he hated Creationism (and absolutely LOVED atheistic Darwinism, he hated religion because of the fact that people gave a tithe to the Church, and he wanted that money to go to the government instead for the cause of economic equality, regardless of the fact that some people work harder than others, some people think harder than others, and some people live with their hands out. So what I'm saying is that you have to see Marx as the first seed to see entirely why I would justify why The Bible is The Anti-Communist Manifesto.

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Originally posted by melon
The Roman Empire was only remotely kind to those they deemed "Roman citizens," and there were plenty of slaves, not to mention that this same empire killed Christians for the following 300 years.

And yet, Jesus still refused to condemn the Roman Empire.

I'm not saying that we have to be complacent and support a terrible government in light of this passage. I'm saying that it was Jesus' intention to focus on spiritual matters, not worldly, political matters; and to call it "The Anti-Communist Manifesto" would be blasphemous, as I see it.

Melon
I agree that Jesus' intentions were non-political, and if you find it blasphemous, then fine. I don't because I see Marx as an anti-Christ. He was the aggressor that told us that religion is the opiate of the masses, and was rather hostile towards Christianity in particular. He wanted to change society to "biblical" proportions.
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:24 PM   #182
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(AP) CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida militants in Iraq vowed war on “worshippers of the cross” and protesters burned a papal effigy on Monday over Pope Benedict’s comments on Islam, while Western churchmen and statesmen tried to calm passions.

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei joined a chorus of Muslim criticism of the head of the world’s 1.1 billion Roman Catholics, calling the pope’s remarks “the latest chain of the crusade against Islam started by America’s (President) Bush”.
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:42 PM   #183
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A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".

Should the Pope have apologised for his remarks? Vote here

His remarks came during a protest outside Westminster Cathedral on a day that worldwide anger among Muslim hardliners towards Pope Benedict XVI appeared to deepen.

The pontiff yesterday apologised for causing offence during a lecture last week. Quoting a medieval emperor, his words were taken to mean that he called the prophet Mohammed "evil and inhuman".

He insisted he was "deeply sorry" but his humbling words did not go far enough to silence all his critics or quell the violence and anger he has triggered.

A nun was shot dead in Somalia by Islamic gunmen and churches came under attack in Palestine.

Choudary's appeal for the death of Pope Benedict was the second time he has been linked with apparent incitement to murder within a year.

The 39-year-old lawyer organised

demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out.

"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."

As well as placards attacking the Pope such as "Pope go to Hell", his followers outside the country's principal Roman Catholic church also waved slogans aimed at offending the sentiments of Christians such as "Jesus is the slave of Allah".

A Scotland Yard spokesman said of his comments: "We have had no complaints about this. There were around 100 people at the demonstration. It passed off peacefully and there were no arrests."

Larger Islamic groups in Britain said they accepted the Pope's apology. Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "The Vatican has moved quickly to deal with the hurt and we accept that.

"It was something that should never have happened - words of that nature were always likely to cause dismay - and we believe some of the Pope's advisers may have been at fault over his speech."

Yesterday's sermon by the Pope was the first time a pontiff has publicly said sorry.

He said he regretted Muslim reaction to his speech and stressed that the quotation did not reflect his personal opinion. Anger and violence - including attacks on seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza - have characterised one of the biggest international crises involving the Vatican in decades.

The Pope appeared determined to move quickly to try to defuse the anger but the fury of many radicals was unabated last night and there were fears for his safety.

Iraqi jihadists issued a video of a scimitar slicing a cross in two, intercut with images of Benedict and the burning Twin Towers.

The website run in the name of the Mujahedeen Army, used by extremist groups who have claimed responsibility for attacks in Iraq, was addressed to "You dog of Rome" and threatened to "shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home".

In a reference to suicide bombing, it said: "We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life."

The threat of violence against Catholics and Christians was emphasised by the murder of an Italian nun in Somalia. Sister Leonella, 66, was shot as she walked from the children's hospital where she worked to her house in Mogadishu, a city recently taken over by an Islamic government.

A Vatican spokesman said he feared her death was "the fruit of violence and irrationality arising from the current situation".

Father Frederico Lombardi said he hoped it was an isolated event. "We are worried about this wave of hatred and hope it doesn't have any grave consequences for the Church around the world," he said.

The murder suggested that extremists are determined to use the Pope's embarrassment as an excuse for violence.

In Turkey, state minister Mehmet Aydin said the Pope seemed to be saying he was sorry for the outrage but not necessarily for his remarks.

"You either have to say this, 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all," he told reporters in Istanbul.

There were fierce denunciations of the pontiff from Iran. The English-language Tehran Times called his lecture in Bavaria last week "code words for a new crusade".

The powerful cleric Ahmad Khatami told theological students in the holy city of Qom: The "Pope should fall on his knees in front of a senior Muslim cleric and try to understand Islam."

But the Turkish government signalled it was content and that the Pope's visit to the country in November can go ahead.

In his sermon yesterday at the Papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo outside Rome, Benedict spoke amid strengthened security.

He said: "I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

"These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. I hope this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address."

No other Pope is thought to have made such an apology.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...#StartComments
Disgusting!!!
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:54 PM   #184
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Originally posted by Rono
The niples off janet and a gay spongebob ? I remember also something about sinead oconner tearing a picture of the pope, what a negative reactions she got. O, and the latest, Madonna on the cross at the new worldtour,...some christians wanted to forbid that trough a court order.
Yes, but did Christians go and kill Madonna fans, the producers of Spongebob and Janet Jackson? No. The most Christians do is complain. They don't murder.
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:02 PM   #185
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Should we "coexist" with Osama bin Laden? Is he going to heaven just because he believes his intentions are good?
What does this have to do with my comment? Nothing.
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:03 PM   #186
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Did you meet Gzndhi ? Martin Luther King ? Hitler ?
Have you ever met any Muslim?
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:10 PM   #187
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I am a firm believer that all ideas come from one of two sources: God or "the World" (i.e. Satan - laugh if you must, but this is what I believe and this is what the Bible teaches...and most importantly, it makes perfect sense). I try to place every idea into one of these two camps. It doesn't work all of the time, but it certainly does work much of the time.

It is easy for me to see where this laughable quote lands. If the Russian Revolution had never happened, Marx would’ve been long forgotten.

No we must wait another 50 or so years until he's forgotten.

Wanderer, I do agree with many of your posts. You seem like an intelligent and well-informed young man. However, your defense of socialism/communism seems a bit confusing to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. (I hope so)
It is not a defence of communism it is an appeal to anti-theism using a full quote that is generally taken out of context.

That ideas either come from the divine or the unholy is a stifling one and regardless of how much sense it makes to an individual it can only inhibit the potential of a society at large.
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:40 PM   #188
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You're probably glad that it doesn't. The Bible overall is pro-democracy, but anti-anarchy. Paul wrote about the role in government, and how it (as theocratic as it sounds) can be a servant of God when it is orderly.
Actually, knowing the trends of the Bible, if ancient Greek democracy or the Roman Republic had existed during the Biblical times, it would probably have been condemned as "pagan."

The Bible makes no pronouncement on the ideal form of government, and all of this just strikes me as an infusion of American nationalism into religion.

Quote:
The context is that Jesus was asked on his views about paying taxes, regardless of how immoral he found the tax collectors to be. His wild accusers accused him of telling his disciples not to pay taxes, but yes, I think we have some common ground in regards to no absolute principle regarding the economy found in the Bible. However, Karl Marx hated everything about the Bible, he hated Creationism (and absolutely LOVED atheistic Darwinism, he hated religion because of the fact that people gave a tithe to the Church, and he wanted that money to go to the government instead for the cause of economic equality, regardless of the fact that some people work harder than others, some people think harder than others, and some people live with their hands out. So what I'm saying is that you have to see Marx as the first seed to see entirely why I would justify why The Bible is The Anti-Communist Manifesto.
First off, Karl Marx wrote "The Communist Manifesto" in 1847, a whole 12 years before Darwin's "The Origin of Species" was published, so there goes your theory that Marx was specifically out to target creationism.

The rest that you mention about Marx is nothing but irrational blather that looks like it should have come out of Eisenhower-era Cold War propaganda. The fact is that you owe Marxist philosophy for moderating American capitalism in the early 20th century. Otherwise, unless you're born of old money, you'd probably be living in a tenement, getting all your services from the single corporate monopoly. There'd be no health insurance, no Social Security, 12/7 work weeks with no labor laws, no minimum wage, and an abundance of child labor with no access to education. This is the kind of environment that Marxism arose from, and religion did nothing to stop these abuses.

Marx was probably correct in his time. The way things were going, a revolution was a matter of time. And religion was--and still can be--an opiate for the masses. There's still way too many people who let their ministers do all their thinking for them, and if you're part of the clergy that's doing well under an oppressive totalitarian state (such as the Roman Catholic Church under Franco in Spain), why would you encourage the masses to revolt?

If you have a beef with totalitarian atheist statism, take it up with Marxism-Leninism, Trotskyism, and Maoism. They're the philosophies that took Marxism to violent ends.

"The only thing I know is that I'm not a Marxist." - Karl Marx

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Old 09-18-2006, 08:00 PM   #189
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Damn, Mac got owned...
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:48 PM   #190
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Have you ever met any Muslim?
yes.

Answer the question.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:55 PM   #191
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No taunting please, folks.

Also I think that'll be enough of the Marx/Bible subtangent for now.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:06 PM   #192
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yes.

And you're still alive?
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Old 09-19-2006, 01:56 AM   #193
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Comparing US soldiers to this kind of evil clearly shows that you really know little about the US military - and even less about the enemy.
uh .. o.k, but I didn't say US soldiers, specifically. Actually, this annoys me also, because there are also other military forces in Iraq, including Australians, who (IMO) have unfortunately been roped into this.

Sorry, I'm just a silly old pacifist. I find it disturbing that a whole group of people have been demonised because of the actions of a few. War and this kind of conflict is an evil act in itself .. it's hard to distinguish the good guys from the bad sometimes.
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:11 AM   #194
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I am a firm believer that all ideas come from one of two sources: God or "the World" (i.e. Satan - laugh if you must, but this is what I believe and this is what the Bible teaches...and most importantly, it makes perfect sense). I try to place every idea into one of these two camps. (I hope so)
I am familiar with this line of reasoning.

I was brought up in an environment where this was accepted.

the idea of "privatizing Social Security" by President Bush probably came from God

and those who opposed it were 'of the World" i. e. Satan

they may not have realized they were opposing good and supporting evil.

I realize this is not on the same scale as genocide,
but even a small step in the wrong direction, is still wrong and supporting evil
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:29 AM   #195
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Originally posted by shart1780


Yes, but did Christians go and kill Madonna fans, the producers of Spongebob and Janet Jackson? No. The most Christians do is complain. They don't murder.
Even the LRA?
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