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Old 09-02-2005, 10:33 AM   #106
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Originally posted by randhail
Yes, if the levies had been higher then it would have probably reduced the damage but if the natural hurricane barriers, marshlands and alike, had not been bulldozed the damage would not have been as severe either. So you can extend the blame beyond the government to developers.
That's very true. And guess whose administration repealed the protection of 20 million acres of wetlands and opened them up to development?
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:56 AM   #107
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It was WRONG for Condi Rice to be shopping in NYC instead of taking calls from international leaders who wanted to help. It was WRONG for Scott McClellan to say people shouldn't be stealing food and water because sooner or later, the government would show up with supplies. And it is WRONG that in the midst of all this, the vice president is on VACATION.

Yes, yes, and yes.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:03 AM   #108
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I would hope his vacation is now over

I agree 100 % with what Gingrich said, how the heck would the govt ever handle a terrorist attack of that magnitude? It is terrifying to think about. Bush himself said today it looks like the Gulf was hit w/ the biggest weapon you can think of, something to that effect I don't have the exact quote.

I don't blame Bush or the govt, but I do hold them accountable for their response. That has nothing to do w/ my views on Bush either, I would feel exactly the same if it was Clinton or any other Democrat. Doing their best isn't good enough when dead bodies are on luggage racks and people who have already suffered enough are being raped.

I can't believe the press secretary actually said that about people taking food and water
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:03 AM   #109
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I know this is hard, Melon, but in a time like this we should think rational. Oil companies donating money.

I`m by no means an apologist for the oil companies but I heard Shell is donating $1million dollars to the relief efforts.

Also, I read this very interesting article in the Globe & Mail this morning:

Nasty, brutish -- society's net snaps
Friday, September 2, 2005

At one point yesterday, as a helicopter-mounted camera showed a teeming swell of furious, gun-toting Louisiana residents mobbing a busload of supplies, a stunned British TV anchor spoke his mind on the air: "I'm having trouble believing that we're watching the continental United States of America. I mean, it looks like Rwanda."

A complete societal breakdown: Nobody expected that from hurricane Katrina, but that is what seems to have engulfed the northern coast of the Gulf of Mexico. The threads that hold society together have unravelled, leaving destruction, looting, violence and desperation.

Americans, who rely on faith and fortune for so many of their most successful endeavours, are beginning to ask how those qualities have failed them so badly. Why is it that in some places struck by catastrophes of similar magnitude, entire societies pull together in enriching acts of mutual assistance, while other societies collapse into self-annihilation?

"Philosophers like John Locke and Thomas Hobbes tried to imagine what a 'state of nature' looked like -- we're now seeing it inside the United States and it's really brutal," says Alan Wolfe, a political scientist at Boston University who has written widely on the fragile foundations of U.S. society. "We're going to have to ask: 'How did we allow this to happen?' ''


In much poorer societies, such as Indonesia and Sri Lanka after the Boxing Day tsunami, or in more polarized societies like Montreal during the 1998 ice storm, scenes of looting, violence and selfish desperation did not occur. But the large U.S. cities of the South have a very different sort of group psychology, in which faith in individual fortune replaces the fixed social roles that keep other places aloft during crises.

In U.S. cities like New Orleans, in the analysis of the American-British organizational psychologist Cary Cooper, social cohesion depends on a shared belief that individual hard work, good luck and God's grace will bring a person out of poverty and into prosperity. But those very qualities can destroy the safety net of mutual support that might otherwise help people in an emergency.

"Fear itself motivates people in the U.S. -- the fear that you could lose everything," Prof. Cooper said in an interview yesterday from his office at the University of Lancaster. "That creates the best in American society, the inventiveness, but the moment the net is pulled out, it becomes a terrible jungle."

Observers have long recognized this tendency to societal breakdown concealed within the mass psychology of U.S. success.

"The moral mandate to achieve success exerts pressure to succeed by fair means, if possible, and by foul means, if necessary," the sociologist Robert Merton wrote in the 1960s. In times of crisis, fair means are too often replaced by foul.

There are exceptions: The extraordinary mass acts of mutual support that followed the Sept. 11 attacks in Lower Manhattan or the floods in the Dakotas, for instance, or the charitable activity that has all but ended the AIDS crisis in the United States.

But historians point to a constant threat of self-destructive breakdowns that seem to dot U.S. history, belying the thin veneer of civility that sits between entrepreneurial prosperity and mass chaos. The individualistic, egalitarian, anti-authoritarian values that have made the United States succeed have always been accompanied by an every-man-for-himself ethos that can destroy the system itself.

"America's egalitarian and meritocratic foundations tend to undercut just those institutions that sustain the values that so concern us," the American sociologist Seymour Martin Lipset wrote in his book American Exceptionalism.

The U.S. historian Steven Mintz says that the Americans of the early 19th century were constantly haunted by "the spectre of social breakdown . . . rising lawlessness, poverty, prostitution, irreligion and violence, which, if not stopped, threatened to destroy the new nation's democratic experiment."

He quotes Sidney George Fisher, a well-off Philadelphian of 1844 whose reaction to the events of the day -- riots between anti-immigration Nativists and recent Irish Catholic immigrants, chiefly over education -- seem to echo the responses of many educated Americans to this week's scenes from New Orleans.

Witnessing the crazed, starved mobs bent on violence who overtook the cities in those days, he said the country seemed "destined to be destroyed by the eruption of the dark masses of ignorance and brutality which lie beneath it, like the fires of a volcano."

In seeking parallels to the current shocking breakdown of basic social functioning in Louisiana and Mississippi, a number of U.S. thinkers said they have been forced to go back to the Lisbon earthquake of 1755.

That disaster, which utterly destroyed one of the most pious cities of the old Roman Catholic empire at the peak of its success, revealed to people across Europe that faith in God's good grace was not enough to keep a society aloft.

The earthquake provoked the leading philosophers and politicians of the age to seek answers outside the confines of the church, and led to the creation of secular thought and the modern nation-state.

This search for a new faith, in something less magical and more likely to save our cities, was the direct motivation for the concept of the 'state of nature,' in which life is 'nasty, brutish and short,' against which the philosophers described a new, secular order -- the same one that gave rise to the American Revolution.


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Or maybe like New Orleans' mayor said, the violence is confined to just a few, mostly the drug addicts denied their next fix...
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:12 AM   #110
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New Orleans: Let's build a city below sea level and put a wall around it. No matter that it is built on marshland and continues to sinks every year.
That's fine, but sooner or later a huge hurricane will come and blow it away.
This is reality y'all.
Could this have been avoided? Maybe, if it had been an indirect Category 3.
They can rebuild the levee to withstand a Category 5 and the next week a Category 6 will come and blow it all away....
It will never be enough. It's called a natural disaster.
That's life on the turbulent Gulf Coast from Texas to Florida.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:15 AM   #111
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I don't know if this has already been posted but it makes perfect sense to me

N.O. Mayor Ray Nagin :



"After 9/11 we gave the president unprecented powers to take care of New York and those other places.... you mean to tell me that a place where thousands of people and thousands more people are dying, we can't figure out [how to get them help]. . . Somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down and sit down the two (sic) them figure this out."


"I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city."
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:19 AM   #112
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Dreadsox, you know I have a lot of respect for the charitable work you do, but to say that people shouldn't be criticizing the government at a time like this--when our leaders have been collectively out to lunch, when resources are either being poorly deployed or not at all, when National Guard troops are spread thin or unavailable, and when the poorest of the poor are bearing the brunt of this disaster--well, that, in my opinion, is irresponsible.

We cannot just swallow this. We cannot say it was all right for Condi Rice to be out shopping, we cannot say it was all right for Dick Cheney to continue his vacation, we cannot say it was all right for Scott McClellan to criticize people who could not leave the city. It is not all right. It is beyond inexcusable.

If you were on a business trip or something, and one of your children got sick, or your wife had an accident, you'd come home on the next plane, right? You wouldn't dawdle in the local Brooks Brothers or decide to hang out on the beach for a few more hours. Why do we not expect the same behavior of our leaders?
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:36 AM   #113
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Bush on CNN: "We got a lot of rebuilding to do.... the good news is and it's hard for some to see it now but out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic gulf coast... out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- the guy lost his entire house -- there's going to be fantastic house. I look forward to sitting on the porch. Out of New Orleans is going to come that great city again."

yes, i'm so happy Trent Lott will be okay.



out.

to.

lunch.

again.

in August ...
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:37 AM   #114
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Yeah...when he started talking about Trent Lott's porch I was like "WTF is this idiot going on about?" and started yelling at the TV
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:41 AM   #115
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Originally posted by Irvine511


yes, i'm so happy Trent Lott will be okay.



out.

to.

lunch.

again.

in August ...

My thoughts exactly, Irvine.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:58 AM   #116
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I think it's time for a fucking revolution.

Organize one. Kick your prez out of office and make a peace march against poverty.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:00 PM   #117
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from my girlfriend, Wonkette:



The President's Response to Insurgent Katrina

Fox News and others are reporting that the President just got "his own bird's eye view" of Katrina's damage as Air Force One flew over the devestated region. Shortly after, Bush gave prepared remarks to the press pool:

We are making progress in New Orleans. The flood is in its last throes. Clearly, the hurricane has a hateful ideology and does not like our freedom or our dryness. We cannot surrender to it. In New Orleans, they are working on a draft evacuation; it is an evacuation process, and we must expect that if we are to bring American-style democracy to the Mississippi Delta.

The president added that "to pull out now would only give aid to the elements."
At first I didn't realize this was a joke.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:12 PM   #118
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i must say first, as many may already know, i've voted for bush twice now... i've never been quick to criticize him or his administration.

i'll also preface this with a defense of the whole "vacation" thing that a lot of people are bitching about... all of congress was on vacation, too. so if you're going to yell at Bush and his administration for being on leave, in all fairness, he did beat congress back to D.C. by a few hours. ALL parties are to blame for their slow response to this tragedy.

but on to my first scatching criticism of the Bush Administration...

Frankly... I was putting together a bunch of paragraphs trying to voice how I felt... but then I read an article that quoted none other than Newt Gingrich, and he put it perfectly... so I'll just quote him instead...

Quote:
"I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" said former House Speaker Newt Gingrich
Now let's first say that don't think I'm comming over to the darkside and joining the Dems... I still think hard-core lefties are completely out to lunch. But what the fuck?!?! The one damn thing that the Bush Administration had going for them was about how they were fighting terror abroad and preparing for future attacks here at home. It's the selling point that's had me hooked.

But what the fuck?!?! WHat the fuck have you been doing for 4 god damn years?!?!

Bush has got to take the blame first, 'cause he's in charge. But I'm talking to Hillary, Schumer, Rice, Rumsfeld, Kennedy, Ridge, Chertoff... everyone who's been a so called leader in preparing us for a future attack... here ya go! Here's a practice run for ya, courtesy of mother nature... and you all failed miserably.

So what the fucking hell have you been doing in the past 4 years that it takes a week to get shit done?

Ponderous...

Fuck Bush, Fuck Clinton, Fuck Schumer, Fuck Rice, Fuck Ridge, Fuck Chertoff... Fuck 'em all.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:22 PM   #119
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But what the fuck?!?! WHat the fuck have you been doing for 4 god damn years?!?!

Bush has got to take the blame first, 'cause he's in charge. But I'm talking to Hillary, Schumer, Rice, Rumsfeld, Kennedy, Ridge, Chertoff... everyone who's been a so called leader in preparing us for a future attack... here ya go! Here's a practice run for ya, courtesy of mother nature... and you all failed miserably.

So what the fucking hell have you been doing in the past 4 years that it takes a week to get shit done?

Ponderous...

Fuck Bush, Fuck Clinton, Fuck Schumer, Fuck Rice, Fuck Ridge, Fuck Chertoff... Fuck 'em all.




the people are outraged at ALL our leaders.

yes, the Republicans are in power, but the Dems are hardly blameless.

we deserve better.

message to the people of the US: vote with your brains, not your emotions.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:30 PM   #120
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Dreadsox, you know I have a lot of respect for the charitable work you do, but to say that people shouldn't be criticizing the government at a time like this--when our leaders have been collectively out to lunch, when resources are either being poorly deployed or not at all, when National Guard troops are spread thin or unavailable, and when the poorest of the poor are bearing the brunt of this disaster--well, that, in my opinion, is irresponsible.

We cannot just swallow this. We cannot say it was all right for Condi Rice to be out shopping, we cannot say it was all right for Dick Cheney to continue his vacation, we cannot say it was all right for Scott McClellan to criticize people who could not leave the city. It is not all right. It is beyond inexcusable.

If you were on a business trip or something, and one of your children got sick, or your wife had an accident, you'd come home on the next plane, right? You wouldn't dawdle in the local Brooks Brothers or decide to hang out on the beach for a few more hours. Why do we not expect the same behavior of our leaders?
Exactly what do you think the Secretary of State should be doing?

I HAVE NEVER SAID IT IS WRONG TO CRITICIZE THE GOVERNMENT.

I do have a problem with people for starters implying that the Iraq War caused the levy to not be fixed do to cuts. It is flat out not true according to everything I have watched.

We DO NOT have the facts about the rescue operation or the manner in which it is being handled.

Am I dismayed at the number of poor who could not get out. Absolutely. Is it Dick Cheney's fault....NO.

I have sat here pissed off because it was 24 hours ago my wife's uncle was taken out of New Orleans. The first buses were sent away to the dome even though they were hired by the hotel to come get them, the buses were diverted by the police elsewhere.

To me there is a difference between politicizing and criticizing.
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