pax
ONE love, blood, life
Irvine511 said:
Heard on the radio this morning...67% disapproved of the Congressional involvement.
MERGED: Terri Schiavo
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Heard on the radio this morning...67% disapproved of the Congressional involvement.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
joyfulgirl said:
joyfulgirl didn't sleep either and neither did her officemate. What's up with that? I blame the equinox.
dunno. i'd just had a great monday as well, and topped it off by pounding out my fastest 4 miles ever on the treadmill (i have COBL to thank for that ... no better U2 song to run to).
then couldn't sleep. melatonin didn't help. neither did Ny-Quil. neither did a scotch.
so now my brain's all swirly today, and i'm slammed at work again.
(and yet, i still find time for blue crack ... )
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
A lot of interesting thoughts and questions raised on this board.
Unfortunately, this guy gets no sympathy from me. I'm not convinced that "until death do us part" includes death forced by your own hand.
Here's what sketches me out...
He's had two kids with another woman.
Can't marry her until he can secure a divorce from his wife.
Can't get a divorce from his wife because she's unable to sign the papers.
But if she dies...
And if it's true that the reason she had a heart attack in the first place was because he was encouraging her to stay thin...
I'm also sketched out by the long-term implications of this case. I'm glad that people here are discussing the merits of a living will. But deciding someone should die when they don't have a voice in the matter (especially considering the diametrically opposed testimonies about whether or not she wanted to die in the first place -- why did it take Michael 7 years to "remember" that his wife wanted to die?)...
As far as the judiciary intruding on the case of a man putting his wife to death -- I wonder what the judge in the Scott Peterson trial would have to say about that?
The principle that murder is wrong is regulated every day by the judicial and legislative branches of government. I'm not sure why suddenly everyone's saying this case is different...
Don't want to raise ire (esp with a grumpy Irvine
), I'm just saying.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
I'm not sure this was mentioned yet, but consider the irony. All this was brought on by Terri's anorexia/bulimia. And now they will starve her to death.
Maeve
The Fly
Hi McPhistowannabe,
Thank you so much for posting Heidi Law's statements. I literally have tears flowing out of my eyes, by just reading how Terri's husband would deny her any kind of treatment. How can he be so cruel...When, I was younger, I worked as a CNA and I know how important it is for stroke and paralized patients to have simple range of motion exercises. The muscles can shrink, causing great discomfort for the patient. I also know that when someone wants to die, they simply give up. I have seen this, first hand.
Also, when working with the Comotose and patients with Alzhemier disease, human touch and voice. Fresh air, soft music, photoghraphs, reading to the patient etc. greatly helps...You can not imagine how important this is.
I am sorry to disagree with some folks, but I believe that Terri is being treated worst than any prisoner of war. Due, to her husband. And I use that word very 'loosely' here.
And on a final note, to Heidi Law and all of the other nurses who cared for Terri. You are angels. God Bless you for loving this woman and fighting for what she wants. If...Terri really wanted to die. She would have died...well...long before now.
Thank you so much for posting Heidi Law's statements. I literally have tears flowing out of my eyes, by just reading how Terri's husband would deny her any kind of treatment. How can he be so cruel...When, I was younger, I worked as a CNA and I know how important it is for stroke and paralized patients to have simple range of motion exercises. The muscles can shrink, causing great discomfort for the patient. I also know that when someone wants to die, they simply give up. I have seen this, first hand.
Also, when working with the Comotose and patients with Alzhemier disease, human touch and voice. Fresh air, soft music, photoghraphs, reading to the patient etc. greatly helps...You can not imagine how important this is.
I am sorry to disagree with some folks, but I believe that Terri is being treated worst than any prisoner of war. Due, to her husband. And I use that word very 'loosely' here.
And on a final note, to Heidi Law and all of the other nurses who cared for Terri. You are angels. God Bless you for loving this woman and fighting for what she wants. If...Terri really wanted to die. She would have died...well...long before now.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
as has been mentioned by myself, Melon, and even Irvine's father who is an MD, this is a 100% natural way to die and it will be totally painless and it happens all the time amongst the terminally ill.
it is not "barbaric." it is humane.
but, yes, i do see the irony.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Irvine511 said:
I wonder what it feels like to starve to death?
joyfulgirl
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Irvine511 said:
We're leading parallel lives. Substitute treadmill for pilates/yoga, melatonin for my secret amino acids/minerals sleep remedy, and the rest sounds pretty much like my day and evening. And I've get to get off the blue crack to do a board report.
Re: the bulimia irony...I actually just came across that little factoid yesterday and thought how ironic.
nathan1977 said:
If you're dying, it's painless. It's more painful to force-feed and hydrate, as organs actually start failing and shutting down before you die. Since the fluids have nowhere to go, they accumulate in the lungs and the patient will drown.
In the case of Terri Shiavo, her cerebral cortex is non-existent. Hence, her means of consciousness and even the sensation of pain are gone. Not only would she not even know she's been unhooked, but she wouldn't even feel starving to death. She's incapable of feeling either of that when those parts of the brain literally don't exist any longer.
Melon
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
That's all very clinical, but it's so much more than that to her family. I don't mean to be argumentative and I know everyone understands it is so much more than that to them.
A doctor could explain all of that to me if I was in their shoes, but it would still be hell for me wondering and questioning.
A doctor could explain all of that to me if I was in their shoes, but it would still be hell for me wondering and questioning.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
melon said:
yes, exactly.
even people who have brain function and choose this method to end their lives are given enough pain mediciation so that its a very peaceful way to go.
this happens all the time, and a way of ending life, naturally.
i'd choose it for myself, should the situation arise.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
joyfulgirl said:
We're leading parallel lives. Substitute treadmill for pilates/yoga, melatonin for my secret amino acids/minerals sleep remedy, and the rest sounds pretty much like my day and evening. And I've get to get off the blue crack to do a board report.
Re: the bulimia irony...I actually just came across that little factoid yesterday and thought how ironic.
secret amino acids? do share ...
joyfulgirl
Blue Crack Addict
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Irvine511 said:
The amino acids aren't secret, just the combination of things I take (L-ornithine, taurine, magnesium and B-6)...and it probably only works if you're deficient in any of these things, which I as a recovering vegetarian of 18 years, am.
Sorry, off-topic.
On a political front, President Bush has a good dose of "hypocrisy" right now:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...eau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_bush_wa_1&printer=1
Melon
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...eau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_bush_wa_1&printer=1
Melon
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Who is the appropriate decision maker in this case: Bob and Mary Schindler or Michael Schiavo?
While Michael is still technically married to Terri, can you still consider him the husband considering he is living with and has children with another women (for all intents and purposes his real wife).
While Michael is still technically married to Terri, can you still consider him the husband considering he is living with and has children with another women (for all intents and purposes his real wife).
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Bush could have signed this bill (Terri Schiavo) in Texas.
Why did h fly back to DC?
Why did h fly back to DC?
nbcrusader said:
Legally, it is Michael Shiavo. That's not going to change.
Besides, with all these rashes of "Defense of Marriage Acts," it probably would be illegal to designate someone else to be that decision maker. After all, that might be construed as being "similar to marriage."
Melon
Moonlit_Angel
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine511 said:
My family and I were talking about this yesterday, and we've all agreed that should any one of us find ourselves in that state, we're stating right now we'd want the plug pulled, too.
Angela
VertigoGal
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
She's dead. Sorry. All this "culture of life" bullshit is ridiculous and hypocritical. It's all a political ploy. :-/
Macfistowannabe
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I would rather have a proper euthanatizing than starve to death if I were Terri and wanted to die.Moonlit_Angel said:
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
ooooooh! look who just weighed in on the situation: Mel fucking Gibson
http://www.terrisfight.net/press/gibson.htm
can you imagine the hysterics if, say, Michael Moore had said anything?
http://www.terrisfight.net/press/gibson.htm
can you imagine the hysterics if, say, Michael Moore had said anything?
Macfistowannabe
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I don't think it would be that hysterical.
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deep
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine511 said:
well,
he did play a doctor in
The Singing Detective.
and he knows the mind of God.
(in Aramaic, no less)
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
deep said:
wow, he's a triple threat! just like J-Lo!
he can act, direct, *and* know the mind of God!
(in Aramaic!)
The problem is, American doesn't HAVE a euthenasia policy, because of its ongoing Puritan frigged-up sensibilities.
And FYI: a "fatwa" is not something evil. A fatwa is the Muslim equivalent of a Papal bull--an edict published by the highest religious authority, supposedly clarifying "church" policy on an issue. A fatwa is the Moslem equivalent, there can be good fatwas and bad fatwas. I thought they were all bad, and sinister, until I learned more about contemporary Islam. The irony is, Islam is not supposed to have priests or Leaders". Mohommed was ticke doff about that and what he saw in the petty squabbling of Christian factions during his life, and that was why he tried to establish Islam as a religion where you were your own leader, and the Koran was the only law. Unfortunately, people are people, and being what they are, they deem other folk as lesser than them and stupid enough to need clarification and enforcing of the law, for their own good and protection....
This little Fatwa that Dubya and his Congressional cronies issued clearly falls under the "bad" side, as it tramples the rule of law.
Regardless of how this plays out, it'd like pre-emptive war: how do we know if, in the future, Bush or another Pres might invoke "Terri's Law" to overturn any state judge's ruling on whatever issue they want? Congressional observers point out that this is the first time they can remember that Congress has contested a state court's decision. The legal implications of this Congressional meddling are frightening. The Fathers were wise enough to decreee that the Goverment was NOT all-powerful and that the little folk had a chance. They were frightened of "imperial" hubris and abuse of power. Dubya has carried on allthrough his terms like the kind of King that the Fathers were so afraid of. That's what I really dislike about him. He must always get his way, and there can be no criticism of him...
And also, I'm thinking: all during August 2001 Bush was getting daily briefings about supposed terrorist threats and he didn't say a peep, let alone leave his ranch. Yet THIS makes him drop everything and race back to DC? The man does nothing except for political gain. He even uses God as a tool. he clearly does not care a frig for her life. If Terri had not been of the proper consituency--white, middle class, and CATHOLIC--if she had been, say, gay--he would be the first to advocate pulling the plug, and say it was God's punishment.
This guy made his first rep as a nororious Death Row executer in texas, and NOW he talks of Terri being on Death Row? It makes me sick.
And FYI: a "fatwa" is not something evil. A fatwa is the Muslim equivalent of a Papal bull--an edict published by the highest religious authority, supposedly clarifying "church" policy on an issue. A fatwa is the Moslem equivalent, there can be good fatwas and bad fatwas. I thought they were all bad, and sinister, until I learned more about contemporary Islam. The irony is, Islam is not supposed to have priests or Leaders". Mohommed was ticke doff about that and what he saw in the petty squabbling of Christian factions during his life, and that was why he tried to establish Islam as a religion where you were your own leader, and the Koran was the only law. Unfortunately, people are people, and being what they are, they deem other folk as lesser than them and stupid enough to need clarification and enforcing of the law, for their own good and protection....
This little Fatwa that Dubya and his Congressional cronies issued clearly falls under the "bad" side, as it tramples the rule of law.
Regardless of how this plays out, it'd like pre-emptive war: how do we know if, in the future, Bush or another Pres might invoke "Terri's Law" to overturn any state judge's ruling on whatever issue they want? Congressional observers point out that this is the first time they can remember that Congress has contested a state court's decision. The legal implications of this Congressional meddling are frightening. The Fathers were wise enough to decreee that the Goverment was NOT all-powerful and that the little folk had a chance. They were frightened of "imperial" hubris and abuse of power. Dubya has carried on allthrough his terms like the kind of King that the Fathers were so afraid of. That's what I really dislike about him. He must always get his way, and there can be no criticism of him...
And also, I'm thinking: all during August 2001 Bush was getting daily briefings about supposed terrorist threats and he didn't say a peep, let alone leave his ranch. Yet THIS makes him drop everything and race back to DC? The man does nothing except for political gain. He even uses God as a tool. he clearly does not care a frig for her life. If Terri had not been of the proper consituency--white, middle class, and CATHOLIC--if she had been, say, gay--he would be the first to advocate pulling the plug, and say it was God's punishment.
This guy made his first rep as a nororious Death Row executer in texas, and NOW he talks of Terri being on Death Row? It makes me sick.
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Macfistowannabe said:
I'd rather have had everyone let go 14 years ago when I truly died and taken my soul out of limbo. When she does finally meet her maker she's gonna wonder where the hell 15 years went. God's just going to have to tell her "some folks downstairs tried to play me and trapped your soul in the dark all these years."
Oooohhh, Bonovox, GOOD POST. "the people downstairs tried to play Me."
Like I said: God is the One Person that he can't arrest and have put in a cage without rights to a trial, or torture, or murder, or fire, or lie to, or hoodwink, or order sexually abused, or rob, or put under house arrest. He'll have all the more to answer for in the brief time he stands before Him (before being shipped off elsewhere), all the more because he claims so blatantly to speak and act in His Name. "You gave your life to Me, and I gave you a chance. And THIS is how you repaid My mercy." There are backsliders, G.W., and there are desecrators of the Name. You fall into that rare category. I, as a Christian since 1988, say this. I'm not in your camp, and I'm not fooled.
There is one Bibilical verse that applies to this. You wanna quote the Bible, Georgy boy? This is from Matthew (I think, I can't quote chapter and verse at the moment): "You blow neither cold nor hot. And because you blow neither cold nor hot, I will spew you from out my mouth." That's how he plays God in his polices, and that's how much he cares. Reports are that a memo is circulating among the GOP in the Senate on how to use this issue to throw the Democratic Senator from FLA out of office next year.
If you were just a Nixon type that would be bad enough. But you do this in the name of freedom, and justice, and democracy, and human rights--you have dragged our nation into the international gutter in HIS Name. You really are no better than those we claim to fight (and I say 'claim" b/c when was the last time you saw Binny's or Al_Quedas' na,e in the news?
Wrod has it (from that Dublin article) that during a 9-minute encore break similar to the one that was in the last part of ZooTV, the band is going to have a 3-D presentation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights projected onto fog, with audio accompaniment. Never a better time. It would be good for Europeans to see but we in the US NEED to see it. It would be good to think that the show is as political as the album is NOT.
Like I said: God is the One Person that he can't arrest and have put in a cage without rights to a trial, or torture, or murder, or fire, or lie to, or hoodwink, or order sexually abused, or rob, or put under house arrest. He'll have all the more to answer for in the brief time he stands before Him (before being shipped off elsewhere), all the more because he claims so blatantly to speak and act in His Name. "You gave your life to Me, and I gave you a chance. And THIS is how you repaid My mercy." There are backsliders, G.W., and there are desecrators of the Name. You fall into that rare category. I, as a Christian since 1988, say this. I'm not in your camp, and I'm not fooled.
There is one Bibilical verse that applies to this. You wanna quote the Bible, Georgy boy? This is from Matthew (I think, I can't quote chapter and verse at the moment): "You blow neither cold nor hot. And because you blow neither cold nor hot, I will spew you from out my mouth." That's how he plays God in his polices, and that's how much he cares. Reports are that a memo is circulating among the GOP in the Senate on how to use this issue to throw the Democratic Senator from FLA out of office next year.
If you were just a Nixon type that would be bad enough. But you do this in the name of freedom, and justice, and democracy, and human rights--you have dragged our nation into the international gutter in HIS Name. You really are no better than those we claim to fight (and I say 'claim" b/c when was the last time you saw Binny's or Al_Quedas' na,e in the news?
Wrod has it (from that Dublin article) that during a 9-minute encore break similar to the one that was in the last part of ZooTV, the band is going to have a 3-D presentation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights projected onto fog, with audio accompaniment. Never a better time. It would be good for Europeans to see but we in the US NEED to see it. It would be good to think that the show is as political as the album is NOT.
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PPS. I am reading this thread and would like to reply to MacPhistowannbe.
Yes, Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and did all sorts of legal chicanery in the Civil War, as did many before and after him. BUT what kind of a toll did that war take on him? He was SUCH a sad man by the time it was over.....nothing he did or ordered came without great personal cost. The famous pics say it all. His was the wisdom to know that in war, there are no winners, not even among those who win. We all sacrifice something deep, something awful, even as we supposedly make gains. His was a face and voice that will speak to the ages: "Why must it come to this??"
And that is ANOTHER thing I can't stand about Bush. These things do not appear to affect him personally at all. When any other man ordered troops into battle, it was a grave, momentous decision. And yet here he was many months later, publicy quoted as saying, "Oh, 2 or 3 deaths a day really are nothing." If human life ever really meant less to anybody, it is him. His casual disregard is appalling, and I'm not the only one who thinks this. We're all just pawns in the game, divide and conquer, and the more confusion works to his advantage.
Yes, Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and did all sorts of legal chicanery in the Civil War, as did many before and after him. BUT what kind of a toll did that war take on him? He was SUCH a sad man by the time it was over.....nothing he did or ordered came without great personal cost. The famous pics say it all. His was the wisdom to know that in war, there are no winners, not even among those who win. We all sacrifice something deep, something awful, even as we supposedly make gains. His was a face and voice that will speak to the ages: "Why must it come to this??"
And that is ANOTHER thing I can't stand about Bush. These things do not appear to affect him personally at all. When any other man ordered troops into battle, it was a grave, momentous decision. And yet here he was many months later, publicy quoted as saying, "Oh, 2 or 3 deaths a day really are nothing." If human life ever really meant less to anybody, it is him. His casual disregard is appalling, and I'm not the only one who thinks this. We're all just pawns in the game, divide and conquer, and the more confusion works to his advantage.
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indra
ONE love, blood, life
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Moonlit_Angel said:
While that is certainly a good first step, it's still just a "but she/he told me" deal. Much better to have it written down. I checked out a site that will allow you to fill out a living will for free (at least for most states).
Living Will
It's certainly better than nothing...at least it's written down and signed.
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