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Old 03-25-2005, 02:44 PM   #406
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Originally posted by melon


Yet another example of "mythic speech." If I wanted to, I could probably say all those things about the Catholic Church, and, more specifically, Cardinal Ratzinger. Sounds like a great description of the GOP, except I know he's not talking about them at all.

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Old 03-25-2005, 02:46 PM   #407
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Originally posted by babyman
terri must not die.................................................terri must not die
We must all die........we must all die..........
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:46 PM   #408
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Originally posted by U2Kitten




I get SO sick of being labeled as religious and basing all my beliefs on that instead of thinking for myself. I'm not really all that religious, I mean, I'm a believer, but I don't even go to church. My beliefs are based simply on human decency, and right and wrong! It's like some people here can't believe or respect that anyone could think that way, they have to be brainwashed by Pat Robertson or something There are some people here who can't ever address our opinions as us actually having MINDS and hearts, it always has to be 'you right-to-lifers' or some other label, as if everyone with that opinion read it on the 700 club or in a mailer from Jerry Falwell and is following a crowd and not thinking for ourselves t's actually very insulting.
But I didn't label anyone as religious. Nor did I bash anyones beliefs. We may agree on what is right in this situation or we may disagree. As you pointed out it is an individual choice.

Choices on matters of life or death are what I labeled religious choices. That of course includes my choices. I was arguing that these must always be individual decisions. What is right for me in Terri's situation may be different than what is right for you. That is true for all people of course.

Just as you would never give that right to "the other side", neither would I.

Since we are a nation of laws, it stands to reason (for me) that we should follow them to the letter. If the laws are stupid or wrong, we should change them. 15 years ago and still today, the spouse of those found to be in a 'vegetative' state determined the action to take.

Terri made the concious decision to marry her husband. Legally, they were from then on responsible for each other in such horrible situations.

If you are taking the position that your beliefs should outweigh the choices incumbent in the choice to marry, then that potentially removes my choice to make such a decision in likewise circumstances.

The only thing I have ever concluded is that it is an individual choice that none of our beliefs are relevant to in this case.

How this case plays out is relevant to all of us.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:47 PM   #409
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Originally posted by drhark


Keeping her in this state isn't making anyone happy but her parents. OK.

Is keeping her in this state making anyone unhappy? Probably Michael. Terri? no.

So if you want to argue about who's happy or unhappy, I'd argue the parents are far more unhappy to see Terri die than Michael would be to have Terri live.

Now I wouldn't myself argue on that basis but the point was made so I saw fit to refute it.

Hope that's more logical for you
I know exactly what you were responding to, but given the circumstance you paint above all you are doing is feeding some organs so her parents have a placebo. That makes no sense. First they have no say legally. Two if you do believe in souls you are being very cruel to one. I just see no logic in this argument.

Your others had a little more ground.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:52 PM   #410
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Originally posted by jay canseco
But I didn't label anyone as religious. Nor did I bash anyones beliefs. We may agree on what is right in this situation or we may disagree. As you pointed out it is an individual choice.

Choices on matters of life or death are what I labeled religious choices. That of course includes my choices. I was arguing that these must always be individual decisions. What is right for me in Terri's situation may be different than what is right for you. That is true for all people of course.

Just as you would never give that right to "the other side", neither would I.

Since we are a nation of laws, it stands to reason (for me) that we should follow them to the letter. If the laws are stupid or wrong, we should change them. 15 years ago and still today, the spouse of those found to be in a 'vegetative' state determined the action to take.

Terri made the concious decision to marry her husband. Legally, they were from then on responsible for each other in such horrible situations.

If you are taking the position that your beliefs should outweigh the choices incumbent in the choice to marry, then that potentially removes my choice to make such a decision in likewise circumstances.

The only thing I have ever concluded is that it is an individual choice that none of our beliefs are relevant to in this case.

How this case plays out is relevant to all of us.
If that's the fact of the matter, I thank you for clarifying it.

In my point of view, it seems as though the Michael Shiavo crowd is making it a religious issue. I'd rather we all stopped and gave it some rational thought before jumping on the "it's only the radical right religious nuts who want to keep Terri alive" bandwagon.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:32 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


We must all die........we must all die..........


yeah, with dignity
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:35 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally posted by jay canseco


But I didn't label anyone as religious. Nor did I bash anyones beliefs. We may agree on what is right in this situation or we may disagree.

I wasn't really talking about you

Quote:
As you pointed out it is an individual choice.
That wasn't me, it was the person whose post I quoted. I don't believe life should be left up to individual 'choice', but that's a topic you don't want to get me started on
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:43 PM   #413
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i would spend my whole life with the person i love hanged on a hospital bed, michael schiavo surely suffered a lot during these hard 15 years and he will never stop to suffer. it would give more sense to my life seeing a little smile of a loved person lying in such conditions, if she must die, she must do it naturally, if there are machines which can take her alive, she must live, this is the very wrong way to end a so sad story. these 15 years will be cancelled, all the love michael shared with terri wil be shattered
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:56 PM   #414
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Now her family is saying she just said "I want to live." Translated from "AAAAA WWWWWAAAAA."
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:03 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally posted by babyman
i would spend my whole life with the person i love hanged on a hospital bed, michael schiavo surely suffered a lot during these hard 15 years and he will never stop to suffer. it would give more sense to my life seeing a little smile of a loved person lying in such conditions, if she must die, she must do it naturally, if there are machines which can take her alive, she must live, this is the very wrong way to end a so sad story. these 15 years will be cancelled, all the love michael shared with terri wil be shattered
That's the thing. Terri's smile isn't really a smile of happiness. It's a smile of reflex. Michael knows that.

It just doesn't make sense to me how anyone can think that keeping her on a feeding tube as a vegetable, trapping her soul (if you believe in souls), and taking up a hospital bed from someone else who may be more deserving (ie, actually has a chance to recover).

The people who are fighting so hard to keep Terri alive are the ones who are expecting her to miraculously recover someday, like this is something someone can just wake up from, like a coma. I am loathe to say it, but it appears to me that the extreme majority of the people fighting to keep her alive are the ones who are totally ignorant of the facts in this case. They're thinking emotionally instead of rationally and logically.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:07 PM   #416
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Originally posted by MrBrau1
Now her family is saying she just said "I want to live." Translated from "AAAAA WWWWWAAAAA."
From CNN:

"'She managed to articulate the first two vowel sounds, first articulating AHHHHHHH and then virtually screaming WAAAAAAAA,' the motion said."

Talk about grasping at straws.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:29 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally posted by babyman
if she must die, she must do it naturally
She has it was years ago.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:31 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What many are striving for is a principled way to deal with irriversable conditions that require ongoing, persistent care. It may be easy to say "let this one die". But it should be based on principles that, when consistently applied, produce results that are just.
Thank you nbcrusader, you said it in a way I wish I had.

I've read 'almost' all of this thread and I keep coming back to the one statement that expressed what I truly feel.
I wasn't trying to do anything other than explain some ofwhat I went through.
We must not loose site of what this is all about...
This issue is so important that it deserves all this incredible debate.

and back at cha - U2Kitten
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:33 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally posted by babyman




yeah, with dignity
And now she is....
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:36 PM   #420
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Originally posted by DaveC


From CNN:

"'She managed to articulate the first two vowel sounds, first articulating AHHHHHHH and then virtually screaming WAAAAAAAA,' the motion said."

Talk about grasping at straws.
If an autistic boy is capable of no more than these utterances, is it fair for the parents to withhold food?
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