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Old 03-24-2005, 03:46 PM   #301
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I just don't understand...this woman is never going to be able to come back from the current state she is in. She's not living, she's in limbo somewhere between living and death. Why are we so afraid of death? Especially those that are arguing this from a religious standpoint (I hope I don't seem argumentative but am curious for viewpoints because I do consider myself a Christian)...why are we afraid for her to go to that 'better place' that we always speak of to console those greiving for a loved one who's passed by any other means?
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:07 PM   #302
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starsgoblue. And to those who covered the question regarding pain.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it shocks me that people think of doctors as barbarians.

they know what they are doing. it's not like this hasn't happened before. in fact, the medical aspect of the case is the LEAST interesting/contraversial part of it. the right wing has pounced on starvation because it sounds cruel to people who don't know any better or have a clue about what goes into palliative care.
Exactly. And in regards to the last sentence of yours, I will once again post the things I stated earlier:

Quote:
Besides that, she's been essentially wasting away for 15 years as it is. I can't imagine this is any crueler an option.

What good exactly would keeping her in this state do, for her or for anyone else?
Angela
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:14 PM   #303
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What good exactly would keeping her in this state do, for her or for anyone else?
Is this something that politics can answer better than her parents?
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:22 PM   #304
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is this something that politics can answer better than her parents?
Ok, so is the main problem you have is that this has become a political issue? I can understand that.

But I don't understand why her parents come into play...this was a woman, not a child. A woman who was married and became this way because of the choices she made. I mean, I'm not married, but if I was I would would most likely go to my husband with important decisions before I'd go to my parents. Wouldn't that pretty much be the norm for all of us? I hope I'm making sense in the way I word this......I worked a long day today.
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:29 PM   #305
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Who you go to to advice depends on circumstances. Some might want to go to their husbands first, and some might prefer their parents. Terri's family is Roman Catholic; I believe her husband is (nominally) Catholic as well. Orthodox Catholic teaching would say that the feeding tube should stay, however this is non-binding and I'm not sure who I agree with to be perfectly honest. Terri's parents are following Church teaching on this; her husband is not.
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:30 PM   #306
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is this something that politics can answer better than her parents?
No, neither could nor should answer this. This is something beyond politics and beyond the longing of a set of parents.
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:43 PM   #307
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Originally posted by starsgoblue
But I don't understand why her parents come into play...this was a woman, not a child. A woman who was married and became this way because of the choices she made. I mean, I'm not married, but if I was I would would most likely go to my husband with important decisions before I'd go to my parents. Wouldn't that pretty much be the norm for all of us? I hope I'm making sense in the way I word this......I worked a long day today.
The man has two children with another women. To me, the other woman is her de facto wife. He could of simply returned her to her parents and saved everyone the drama.
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:52 PM   #308
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

He could of simply returned her to her parents and saved everyone the drama.
And keep a soul trapped in limbo forever...
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:57 PM   #309
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


And keep a soul trapped in limbo forever...
This is your personal religious belief. I happen to agree with the decision to remove life support for non-religious reasons.

Since each person has their own religious beliefs, it would solve alot of future problems if a living will became legally mandatory.

The afterlife as believed by many is eternal. Fifteen years of suspension may be tolerable to some believers when compared to eternity.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:41 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The man has two children with another women. To me, the other woman is her de facto wife. He could of simply returned her to her parents and saved everyone the drama.

or perhaps he's fufilling his husbandly duties and granting her what he, and others -- let's not forget, this has been upheld in court many times -- have said was her wish: that she not remain in a state like this.

the easy thing for him to do would be to give her back to her parents.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:53 PM   #311
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This woman has, above all, a right to live. She is judged by some doctors to be in a persistent vegetative state. If she was only severely retarded but responsive and reactive to outside stimuli, as the parents insist she is, there would be no grounds to remove the tube and we wouldn't even be discussing this because we dont starve retarded people in this country, at least not yet.

So some doctors have convinced one judge that she's in a PVS. (yes, many judges have reviewed the procedural aspects of the case but only one has reviewed the facts in the case). Never mind the possibility of evidence to the contrary or possible misdiagnosis, next question is, what do you do with her?

1)The husband does not have the right to remove the feeding tube just because he wants to. His legal case is that he's speaking for her wishes and that she would have wanted the tube removed, because she said so at one particular time. It seems his entire case is built on flimsy hearsay evidence that would not stand in many other legal cases. The full burden of proof that she forfeited her right to live should be on him.

2)The family is perfectly willing to care for her and in fact are pleading for her life.

Something just doesn't add up for me.

If Michael is so passionate in his belief that she wouldn't have wanted to live this way but at the same time believes she is completely brain dead, just a body on auto pilot, well case is closed, isn't it? For all intents and purposes, she's dead. No thinking. No feeling. She's 100% out of the picture.

Why not give her to the parents and brother and sister who are pleading for life? The mother that bore her?

Point 2: I don't blame him for hooking up with another woman, but by doing so, setting up house and having two children, doesn't he forfeit his moral claim to her guardianship?

Point 3: Another thing that's not sitting right with me is the fact that her parents and family talk of her laughing and smiling and uttering sounds as if trying to form words as opposed to the doctors' characterization of PVS.
Either the parents are telling the truth, are in serious denial, or are lying. I'll be the first to admit I don't have nearly all the info in the case but I have to believe the family.

There's a lot of talk in this thread about:
1) what she would have wanted:
Nobody knows.

2) what you would do if you were in her position:
Totally irrelevant

3) no chance of recovery or rehabilitation:
same could be said of many neurological injuries. Life's value does not lie in it's potential.

4) Why are we so afraid of death?
Because she's still alive, and she may want to be alive

Don't get me wrong, if it's true her cerebral cortex is 100% liquefied, her EEG is 100% flatlined and she's truly in a vegetative state then there's no question. It's just that I choose to believe the parents when they say they can interact with her, over the testimony of a few doctors who may have misdiagnosed her.

If I'm wrong, I'm glad to err on the side of life.

5) And keep a soul trapped in limbo forever...

Well we can start a whole new thread over this. So when did this soul first enter her body, the day she was born? You don't want to go there. May end up in Hypocriteville.
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:55 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Is this something that politics can answer better than her parents?
I was just posing the question to anyone out there who thinks that she should be kept on the feeding tube, just to see what, in their eyes, could possibly be a benefit of keeping her on the feeding tube-but I personally would agree with BVS on this one. I do think that it's stupid (and a bit sick, too) that people are using this as a political thing-no argument here regarding that aspect of it all.

Angela
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:04 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


I was just posing the question to anyone out there who thinks that she should be kept on the feeding tube, just to see what, in their eyes, could possibly be a benefit of keeping her on the feeding tube-but I personally would agree with BVS on this one. I do think that it's stupid (and a bit sick, too) that people are using this as a political thing-no argument here regarding that aspect of it all.

Angela
It doesn't matter what we think the benefit would be. Her parents obviously see a benefit. What benefit could ther possibly be to keeping a Down's syndrome person alive? and so on and so on

It's quite a charge to accuse someone who believes in the sanctity of life of using this for political gain. There are some politicians who actually believe in what they stand for. It's always a knee jerk reaction to accuse one of politicization. If some politicians gain politically for standing up for their beliefs, so be it.
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:07 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


So some doctors have convinced one judge that she's in a PVS.
Yeah I'm sure these doctors have a political agenda in doing so.

Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

Something just doesn't add up for me.

If Michael is so passionate in his belief that she wouldn't have wanted to live this way but at the same time believes she is completely brain dead, just a body on auto pilot, well case is closed, isn't it? For all intents and purposes, she's dead. No thinking. No feeling. She's 100% out of the picture.
That makes no sense. If it's his belief that she wouldn't want it this way then he'd try and make that belief true, how the hell would being brain dead change that?


Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

5) And keep a soul trapped in limbo forever...

Well we can start a whole new thread over this. So when did this soul first enter her body, the day she was born? You don't want to go there. May end up in Hypocriteville.
Hypocriteville, um no don't think so.
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:15 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
4) Why are we so afraid of death?
Because she's still alive, and she may want to be alive
So why don't you ask her yourself? Blink once for "no." Blink twice for "yes."

You see, though, when you don't have a brain, you can't do that.

Melon
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