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Old 02-20-2003, 03:22 AM   #76
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If I had to take a wild punt I'd say the left-right divide here is about even. I recall plenty of nastiness now and in the past, started by both sides. If I were to take another wild punt I'd say that the right has drifted further to the right, thus making a number of frankly middle-of-the-road posters appear left-wing. Which, really they aren't.
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Old 02-20-2003, 12:54 PM   #77
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There are some really good posts! It really isn't true that anti-war people are pro-Saddam. God forbid. I support the about like I supported Slobodan Milosevic. We had an insufferable Serbian troll on one of my Eastern European history listservers. Ugh. We banned the . During the war in Kosovo some idiot shot a woman who was nursing a baby. The whole thing was one big nightmare for me. I kept hoping the troops would take Milosevic out and stop the atrocities, but it didn't happen. I couldn't imagine white-washing the Greater Serbia Atrocity Campaign From Hell. But some people did. Ugh.
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:19 PM   #78
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Nice post Bama.
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:43 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
Too often I have seen people post something and go ahead and single sting2 out and tell him, in other words, not to post his usual rationale (violation of UN resolutions). I admit we are all familiar with sting2's reasons for supporting a pre-emptive strike on Iraq, but those ARE his reasons for it. Yes, it is only ONE SET of reasons, but it has consistenly been his reasoning and he feels that it justifies military action. He has not changed it nor come up with anything new, and I do not see any need to for this reason:

Some of you have been "pre-emptively" telling conservatives not to post in your threads and what-not; you can say what you want in your threads and attempt to fashion them as you wish (I guess), but maybe you shouldn't post such threads in a forum called "Free Your Mind." Maybe we should set up a forum called "Brain Fart" or something, I don't know.
I'm assuming you're talking in general terms, because I started this thread, and at no time did I ask anybody, on this thread nor any other of mine to not post a response or to only post responses that are to my liking.

I agree with your points, but I'd expand to say that there has also been a tendency recently to hijack threads to one own's liking. Sometimes not all roads lead to UN resolutions or to pacifism, right?
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:55 PM   #80
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Nice post Bama.
Yes indeed. Excellent.
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:32 PM   #81
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Great Post BAMA! Thank You!
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:09 PM   #82
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Bama,

I wish a speedy and full recovery to your injured hand.
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:29 PM   #83
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great articulation,
great form,
grand message..

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Old 02-20-2003, 11:35 PM   #84
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Thanks, y'all, but it's really just what has been on my mind lately. And anitram, it was very much a general observation and I have never seen you employing the tactic of response control. I think you post your opinions as you feel lead to, and although I do not always agree with you, your perspective is valuable to this forum.

And I see your point about hijacking threads, and we should all try to draw the line somewhere. The problem is, most of the "anti-war" commentaries and such theat people paste or link in here inevitably make some mention of Mr. Hussein and Iraq and all too often lead to those ol' UN resolutions which we should all know by memory now.

And deep, I went to get my stiches removed on Tuesday (the scheduled day) and after removing 3 of the 6 stitches, they determined them to not yet be healed and they superglued the wound. It is a very flexible and motive part of my hand, the stretchy flap between the thumb and index finger, and it is thus difficult to keep it stable. The remaining stitches and glue are to be removed Sunday.

~U2Alabama
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Old 02-21-2003, 07:22 AM   #85
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Excuse me U2 Bama, but I didnīt accuse us3 of posting this article, I just wondered about how anyone can find the above-mentioned article a well-written piece, when Lileks obviously uses the rhetoric techniques mentioned above to make people believe in what he says.

So, "congratulations for eating that shit" wasnīt meant to sound like "how come you take the right to post shit like that" (anyone has the right to post what he wants) but more meant like "how can you think this is a great article with all this (in my eyes, primitive) propaganda inside".

I surely wouldnīt compare Lileks to A. Roy, given that A. Roy has expressed a lot of worthwile facts in his speech (even though I agree there was some rhetorics too, but they didnīt seem hateful to me) whereas Lileks just seems to have a will to manipulate readers by using his techniques. This means, I didnīt learn anything new by the Lileks article, no new arguments, no new facts - whereas A. Roy has mentioned very interesting facts, f.e. the situation in India, upcoming privatization of natural resources like water, etc.

Just my opinion.

Iīm not in any way "encouraging a suppression of "pro-war" or "pro-military action" or "pro-U.S." thoughts". I have never recieved any warning from moderators, and I have never reported anything to moderators, I think thats childish and therefore I avoid it. I think mods and admins spend enough of their time on interference doing more useful things than having to react to insults of FYM posters.

"Some of you have been "pre-emptively" telling conservatives not to post in your threads" - did I ever do that? Surely not.

If you were referring to me - because you were starting your post with my name - I remember that one time, in one thread, I said something like "Please not the usual comments that have nothing to do with what this thread is about" (like against "hijacking" the thread, which I may be guilty of too, by posting this answer as a reaction to your thoughts) but at the same time I was telling everyone , including "conservative" members like STING2, to go ahead and post whatever they want if they really feel the need to do so. So, this may be a suggestion and a will of what I would like to see, but its not censorship, because everyone is free to post what he wants in FYM anyway, in my understanding.

I would like to conclude that by any means, I respect the "conservative" members of this board just like the "not-so-conservative" ones. There are numerous examples you can find in my FYM history that I donīt base my opinions on assumptions whether someone seems "conservative" or not.

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Old 02-21-2003, 07:27 AM   #86
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Let me add that Iīm very sorry for the pain you must have with your hand. I had a wound sometime at the same part of my hand, but was lucky to not be injured severly. I hope you will feel fine soon.
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Old 02-22-2003, 09:42 PM   #87
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Whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

It was not my intent to post something incendiary and offensive, I am sorry.

As for myself, I am not angry with the anti-war protestors, (nor Iraq for that matter).
However, some protestors trouble me with their signs comparing Bush, Blair et al, to Hitler. When in reality the only one who has gassed anybody is Saddam. I am troubled by the fact that nowhere (that I have seen) they’re any voices, or signs, speaking out against Saddam.

I find it disturbing that leaders from one of the main organizers ANSWER have a consistent history of supporting oppression by regimes of tyranny, China and Tiananmen, Kim IL in North Korea (to name a few), and that they would censor someone like Michael Lerner, the editor of Tikkun for merely publicly expressing some opposing views to ANSWER.

It is evident to me that the Iraqi people will never be able to rid themselves of Saddam given his internal security forces and their ability to inflict terror and torture on anybody who might oppose him.

In the past I have been encouraged by some to provide my own thoughts when posting, or in lieu of, articles that I find surfing the Internet. Sharing your perspective has helped me to understand that haphazard postings do not elevate the discussion. Thank you. Take care.

-us3
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Old 02-23-2003, 07:34 AM   #88
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Sure enough, it is ridiculous to compare Bush or Blair or even Saddam to Hitler.

I do think that there are lots of people who speak out against Saddam, not only the Bush administation or Blair or journalists or Iraqi opposition and numerous other politicians.

Whenever the protestors are asked for their views concerning Saddam, they tell "Yeah, we think heīs a bad dictator". The main goals of the protests, though, is to avoid war. Given the fact that you canīt write a novel on a piece of paper, I do understand that there are no "Anti-saddam" signs.

Plus, I have heard this argument so often, that I think it is another rhetorical trick, to influence the public opinion, like "Look, the protestors support Saddam". They donīt. Its not either for or against, like the current US administration implies.

I donīt know about Answer or about the organizers of the protest. I think it depends on the cause. When I went to protest against our government, I knew there were around a hundred platforms who organized the protest, amongst them some groups who still believe communism was a great thing. And so? Doesnīt disturb me. I am not their opinion, but you know, we are pretty pluralistic. I wouldnīt stay away from a protest which I think is worth the cause, also if I donīt agree with all of the groups who organize it. Why should I? Its about the protest, not about them. Just my two cents.

And go ahead, post anything you like, you know, just be ready for reactions

Thank you too. Take care.
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Old 02-23-2003, 11:40 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by us3
As for myself, I am not angry with the anti-war protestors, (nor Iraq for that matter).
However, some protestors trouble me with their signs comparing Bush, Blair et al, to Hitler. When in reality the only one who has gassed anybody is Saddam. I am troubled by the fact that nowhere (that I have seen) they’re any voices, or signs, speaking out against Saddam.
Nobody's denying that there are some fringe elements at these protests, but the vast majority of prostesters are average citizens, no different than most of us.

To the question of why aren't there any anti-Sadaam signs at the protests, I would answer thusly: If I were to attend a peace rally, why would I bring a sign protesting Sadaam when the only reason I'm attending the rally is to support the idea of peace? What I stand against is President Bush's private war against Iraq, a war in which innocents will be killed.

When one considers that the need to stop Sadaam's atrocities against his own people is one of the cornerstones of the argument made by those who support the movement to bomb Iraq, one wonders why those who are in favor of the war, or the bombing of Iraq, or stopping Sadaam, or whatever exactly it is that they're in favor of, aren't themselves out in the streets with signs declaring their disgust with Sadaam and his tyranny.

I have not seen a single "pro-war" person out in the streets protesting Sadaam's behavior. Curious indeed. I would think "pro-war" people should be having huge rallies condemning Sadaam's behavior if it's such a big issue to them. (Or, is it possible that Sadaam's behavior only becomes an issue when a U.S. President decides he needs to bomb Iraq?)

Quote:
I find it disturbing that leaders from one of the main organizers ANSWER have a consistent history of supporting oppression by regimes of tyranny, China and Tiananmen, Kim IL in North Korea (to name a few), and that they would censor someone like Michael Lerner, the editor of Tikkun for merely publicly expressing some opposing views to ANSWER.
With respect to the U.S. rallies, I don't know who's sponsoring them and I don't particularly care. I'm not going to a rally to support the organizers. I'm going to support the idea of peace and protest the idea of war. That's the main thrust of these rallies. If it weren't, I wouldn't attend. It's that simple.



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Old 02-23-2003, 01:17 PM   #90
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Hey, U2Bama, sorry about your hand! That sounds nasty! I've only had to get stitches once, after a stupid accident in which I fell down a flight of stairs and got a nasty cut on my forehead. (the accident was really my fault, but let's not get into embarrassing details, OK??)That was not fun. I've done things like get second degree sprains in my ankle.......ouch. It's not fun. I hope the hand heals soon!! I truly hate injuries.
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