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Old 01-14-2008, 05:29 PM   #391
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But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter that they're more liberal. They can be grouped together, because their positions are all completely and utterly unacceptable.
But to you they are unacceptable. Whether they are right or wrong, some people believe that gay marriage should be federally banned, others believe it should be up to the states, others believe that it should be federally legalized. So it is important that people are aware who is more conservative and more liberal on the position. What if it ends up being Mitt Romney vs. Hillary Clinton? For someone whom gay marriage is the biggest issue would vote for Clinton because her position is more liberal than of Romney's. Even though they are all unacceptable to you, and if gay marriage is the biggest issue to you, if all their other positions were the same, you would then vote for Clinton over Romney. Why is that? Because Clinton's position is MORE liberal. It may be unacceptable to you, but then of course Romney's position is MORE unacceptable.

Again, let me use the gambling example. AND I'M IN NO WAY SAYING THAT GAMBLING AND GAY MARRIAGE ARE COMPARABLE. Personally, I think casinos should be allowed to operate in every state, and states shouldn't be able to ban casinos from opening business. So if there was a candidate who wanted a federal ban on gambling, and there was another one who wanted to leave the issue to the states, even though I don't love either of their positions, the guy who wants to leave it to the states is the position that is better for me and more acceptable, so I would choose him. It would be misinformative to say that both candidates are equally unacceptable.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:55 PM   #392
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No, they are unacceptable, not just to me. They just are. They are wrong. Those who believe gay marriage should be banned federally are wrong. Those who believe it should be up to states are wrong. It's not an opinion issue. It's an issue of acknowledging the facts or not.

If it's Mitt Romney vs. Hillary Clinton, the gays are screwed for at least another four years.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:07 PM   #393
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You know Infinitum98, I'm glad that you're excited by a candidate, I'm happy that you're so willing to defend your choice for president, and that the man you are supporting is getting you to participate so much in the election process. It really and truly makes me happy when people get excited and participate, no matter what their leanings. It makes me feel that democracy has a chance.



BUT.

As I was reading a biography of Dr. King to my class, like I do every January, I thought of you. There is no way you, or anyone else, can justify a "states rights" platform and make anyone think it promotes civil rights. No way. Anyone who thinks so needs to study American history a little more, and really look closely at what went on before federal intervention. Look at how southern states were finally forced to integrate, look at the need for a federal anti-lynching law and why it took so long to get one, look at the voting rights issues, look at educational issues.

Really look. Because your naive insistence that the states will do the right thing has made you a gullible young person. I won't say what Paul's insistence has made him.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:16 PM   #394
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
No, they are unacceptable, not just to me. They just are. They are wrong. Those who believe gay marriage should be banned federally are wrong. Those who believe it should be up to states are wrong. It's not an opinion issue. It's an issue of acknowledging the facts or not.

If it's Mitt Romney vs. Hillary Clinton, the gays are screwed for at least another four years.
OKAY. But if it is Mitt vs. Hillary who would you vote for? Under Mitt no gays in any state would have any chance of getting married. Under Hillary, of course it wouldn't be perfect equal rights for gays, but it certainly would give more of a chance to gays to marry. You keep saying they are all unacceptable, okay, fine, but you won't admit that Mitt Romney's position is more conservative than Ron Paul's or Hillary Clinton's.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:18 PM   #395
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It IS more conservative than Paul's or Clinton's. I addressed this a while ago.

I'm saying it doesn't matter at all!

I'd vote for Hillary, as Romney's wrong on most issues.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:27 PM   #396
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Originally posted by martha
You know Infinitum98, I'm glad that you're excited by a candidate, I'm happy that you're so willing to defend your choice for president, and that the man you are supporting is getting you to participate so much in the election process. It really and truly makes me happy when people get excited and participate, no matter what their leanings. It makes me feel that democracy has a chance.



BUT.

As I was reading a biography of Dr. King to my class, like I do every January, I thought of you. There is no way you, or anyone else, can justify a "states rights" platform and make anyone think it promotes civil rights. No way. Anyone who thinks so needs to study American history a little more, and really look closely at what went on before federal intervention. Look at how southern states were finally forced to integrate, look at the need for a federal anti-lynching law and why it took so long to get one, look at the voting rights issues, look at educational issues.

Really look. Because your naive insistence that the states will do the right thing has made you a gullible young person. I won't say what Paul's insistence has made him.
Well said.

I wonder, what would've happened if the issue of civil rights for African Americans was left up to the states?
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:29 PM   #397
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Originally posted by martha
You know Infinitum98, I'm glad that you're excited by a candidate, I'm happy that you're so willing to defend your choice for president, and that the man you are supporting is getting you to participate so much in the election process. It really and truly makes me happy when people get excited and participate, no matter what their leanings. It makes me feel that democracy has a chance.



BUT.

As I was reading a biography of Dr. King to my class, like I do every January, I thought of you. There is no way you, or anyone else, can justify a "states rights" platform and make anyone think it promotes civil rights. No way. Anyone who thinks so needs to study American history a little more, and really look closely at what went on before federal intervention. Look at how southern states were finally forced to integrate, look at the need for a federal anti-lynching law and why it took so long to get one, look at the voting rights issues, look at educational issues.

Really look. Because your naive insistence that the states will do the right thing has made you a gullible young person. I won't say what Paul's insistence has made him.
Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not saying that the position that the states get to choose is the right path to legalize gay marriage. I've admitted that Dennis Kucinich is the only one for total equality of gays and straights. You are missing the point in my posts. All I have been saying is that leaving it to the states is more liberal than federally banning gay marriage, while I have constantly admitted that federally legalizing gay marriage is more liberal than leaving it to the states. But at the same time, it should be worth noting that Ron Paul is the only Republican who doesn't want to take Federal action to limit or ban gay marriage, and who is the only Republican for full equality of gays and straights in the military.

But it comes down to what issues matter the most to the voter. For someone who's most important issue is gay marriage rights, obviously they will support Kucinich and if he doesn't get nominated they would support Obama, who supports civil unions even though he doesn't want to give the title of marriage to gays. And i'm not naive or gullible about it. I see the issue, and I see who is best for the issue of gay marriage legalization, and i'll say it again, it is Kucinich.

But for me, the most important issues are non-intervension and low taxes. And the only candidate that fits both those measures is Ron Paul. I wish there were other candidates like him, but there are not, so i'm doing the best I can to try to get him nominated and which is why i'm spending all this time talking about the gay marriage issue, even though it is not the most important issue to me.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:46 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Thanks for the kind words.
You're welcome. I meant them. Every word.


Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98

I'm not saying that the position that the states get to choose is the right path to legalize gay marriage.

Now, I'm not just talking about gay rights. I'm talking about civil rights, which includes gay rights. If you feel Ron Paul is worth voting for, then vote for him. I want you to participate. But don't give him credit where it is not due. That's all.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:14 PM   #399
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Now, I'm not just talking about gay rights. I'm talking about civil rights, which includes gay rights. If you feel Ron Paul is worth voting for, then vote for him. I want you to participate. But don't give him credit where it is not due. That's all.
About the civil rights issue, he does not want to leave the states to decide whether segregation of races is allowed or not. Because that would be unconstitutional according to him since he is for individual equality on all levels, so he would definitely not allow any sort of segregation or discrimination based on race, like some people might think he would. So I think he really is for equal rights for all with the exception of the gay marriage issue that he wants to leave to the states. But then again, most of the candidates are also for equal rights for all with the exception of the gay marriage issue.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:17 PM   #400
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All I have been saying is that leaving it to the states is more liberal than federally banning gay marriage, while I have constantly admitted that federally legalizing gay marriage is more liberal than leaving it to the states.
Here's the thing:

I don't give a shit about liberal vs. conservative on this issue.

I don't care that Paul is "more liberal" than the worst option out there. I don't. It doesn't matter.

Paul's NOT for the civil rights and equality. Don't give me the BS line about him being better than the guys who are worse. I don't give a shit. He's not for civil rights and equality. Bottom line.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:19 PM   #401
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But then again, most of the candidates are also for equal rights for all with the exception of the gay marriage issue.
Why does this matter?

He's not and they're not. OK. He's not for equal rights.

Ron Paul's not for equal rights.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:30 PM   #402
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But then again, most of the candidates are also for equal rights for all with the exception of the gay marriage issue.
I wonder why Americans who waffle on this issue can't just look around them at the rest of the Western world, to countries which have gay marriage and haven't descended into some type of Soddom & Gomorrah and think "huh....maybe this thing works!"
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:31 PM   #403
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I wonder why Americans who waffle on this issue can't just look around them at the rest of the Western world, to countries which have gay marriage and haven't descended into some type of Soddom & Gomorrah and think "huh....maybe this thing works!"
Because you're all going to hell, I imagine.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:33 PM   #404
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About the civil rights issue, he does not want to leave the states to decide whether segregation of races is allowed or not.

Are you sure about this?
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:09 PM   #405
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Are you sure about this?
Yes because he is for individual liberty and equality, so segregation wouldn't fit in with that.
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