MERGED--> So...Ron Paul + Vote Ron Paul - Page 24 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-12-2008, 09:26 PM   #346
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


I hate to belabor the point, but no, it is not. If his platform really was about liberty and equality for all, he wouldn't be leaving equal rights for homosexuals up to the states.
Isn't everybody's platform about equality? Doesn't every politician say that everyone is equal? But again, if you are going to accuse him of not giving homosexuals equal rights, than almost every other candidate would be accused about that. But you said that you would vote for Hillary Clinton even though her position on gay rights is the exact same as Paul's becuase there are other issues that matter to you and she would be best fit for the job running against a Republican. Well, i'm the same, there are other issues that are more important to me, and Ron Paul is the one whom I like the most because of the issues that matter to me. But I think every candidate stands for equality for all, but almost all of them don't give gays that right.
__________________

__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 09:43 PM   #347
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,237
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Isn't everybody's platform about equality? Doesn't every politician say that everyone is equal? But again, if you are going to accuse him of not giving homosexuals equal rights, than almost every other candidate would be accused about that. But you said that you would vote for Hillary Clinton even though her position on gay rights is the exact same as Paul's becuase there are other issues that matter to you and she would be best fit for the job running against a Republican. Well, i'm the same, there are other issues that are more important to me, and Ron Paul is the one whom I like the most because of the issues that matter to me. But I think every candidate stands for equality for all, but almost all of them don't give gays that right.
No, not everyone's platform is about equality (although Obama and Kucinich are for giving them equal rights under the law). At least, not everyone is trumpeting their platform as all about liberty and equality for all while having a glaringly obvious exception like you do with Ron Paul.

Yes, I said I'd vote for Hillary Clinton over a Republican because there are other issues. However, I am not going around saying Hillary Clinton is all about liberty and equality for all, am I?
__________________

__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 10:46 PM   #348
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Actually, all this stuff Infintium has provided about Paul has been interesting and I agree for most practical purposes there's not much difference between him and the democrats on the position of gay marriage.

But I won't be voting for him and here's why.

1. I think the taxes thing is a conservative/libertarian wet dream.
The way he wants to incorporate it is dangerous, in my opinion, abolishing taxes on the theory that we will have sufficient revenue, when neither side shows any particular interest in cutting spending, the difference is where they intend to spend.
The President doesn't have sufficient pull to control Congressional spending. But, in the event it could work, I would work the other way around--cut the spending (and there is enough unnecessary spending going around without willy-nilly cutting programs that may help people). I'd pay down this monstrous debt we're saddled with. And then, when we have actually proven we are fiscally responsible, then maybe I would ease the transition by lowering taxes, holding, lowering again, monitoring as we go along perhaps with the ultimate but patient goal of abolishing taxes. (However, personally, I'm not for abolishing the income tax. I don't think the tax is the problem, the waste is) His position on a tax revolution is flawed.

2. While I think states rights are fine for some things, there is an inequity in basic human rights between state to state. Texas will always execute more people than, say, Pennsylvania (although it appears we will be having an execution shortly as the governor recently signed a death warrant) and definitely more than New Jersey. And Infintium hasn't given me really any evidence that Paul will seek to abolish the death penalty completely, although I believe he thought he was (Paul does take the position the federal death penalty should be abolished). The federal government isn't all-wise, the states certainly aren't and leaving some things in the hands of the state is tantamount to denying rights.

3. Affirmative action may be legalized discrimination. But nonprotection is de facto discrimination. The pragmatic US motto is "All men are created equal, but some are created more equal than others". We have seen in our past what occurs when there are not legislative protections. Those legislative protections came into being because they were necessary (although you can make an argument they could be better implemented.) Case by case, you can call what Paul proposes equal, but when it comes out in the wash, we will still have those who are let in and those who are left out and it will have nothing to do with their abilities and everything to do with a comfort factor and perceptions. What Paul calls equality, I call sanctioned freedom to discriminate. Perhaps he has a higher faith in people than I do.
But people will do what they can do. What discrimination we've ended has come when the government finally said "You can't."
1. You are right about the taxes thing, they can't be cut unless we cut enough spending. But Ron Paul acknowledges that, and he wants to cut more spending than any other candidate. And he has also said on numerous occassions that the tax cuts won't come unless they cut enough spending. He's said that they won't happen overnight. He has never voted for an unbalanced budget. And inflation is a very serious issue for him, so he would never overspend and undertax. I think the other Republican candidates are described by what you mention: that these people don't want to cut spending, but want to cut taxes. Every other Republican candidate wants to increase the size of the military, police the world more, but at the same time they want to cut taxes, which doesn't work and will certainly put us into more debt and kill the dollar more. So about Ron Paul, I think he seriously does care about cutting spending, he does care about inflation and he does want to balance the budget. He will not be like Bush, who cut taxes yet increased spending so much to create the worst deficits ever.

2. Paul wants to abolish the death penalty. That is one thing when asked about his answer is not to leave it to the states. He was asked about this in the PBS debates, I think, and his answer was that he is against the death penalty and wants to abolish it.

3. With affirmative action, discrimination against minorities can be curbed, but it isn't really fair to the white students, for example, who deserve education in Harvard, for example, when students with lower abilities are given the education just because they are minorities. You are right, without affirmative action, discrimination against these minorities may exist, but atleast it wouldn't be legal. And we can set up more control measures and make the schools publicize information about grade requirements, etc and enforce harsher penalties on people who do discriminate. Of course it wouldn't be perfect, but it would help. Second thing is that there are so many types of discrimination, not only discrimination against minorities. People can discriminate because of age, religion, sex, political affiliation, or many other reasons. So even with affirmative action it would be impossible to control discrimination. Third, we can't assume that people don't discriminate against whites. When discrimination is mentioned, people automatically think blacks or minorities. I don't blame them, it is because of the history of this country and treatment towards blacks, Native Americans or other groups of minorities which is the reason why nobody thinks of whites. But white people can also be discriminated against.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 10:55 PM   #349
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


No, not everyone's platform is about equality (although Obama and Kucinich are for giving them equal rights under the law). At least, not everyone is trumpeting their platform as all about liberty and equality for all while having a glaringly obvious exception like you do with Ron Paul.

Yes, I said I'd vote for Hillary Clinton over a Republican because there are other issues. However, I am not going around saying Hillary Clinton is all about liberty and equality for all, am I?
Yes but if the topic of equality were ever brought up to any candidate, of course they would all say that they are for equality of all. And the only reason that I am going around saying that Ron Paul is for liberty for all is because it seemed like people incorrectly assumed that he is the only one who wants to leave the gay marriage issue to the states, when in fact Hillary does also and all the other Republicans actually want to take Federal measures to limit or ban gay marriage.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 10:57 PM   #350
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


And he's full of shit when he (and you) say that he's for "liberty." When the state gets to decide when a woman has a child or not, THAT'S NOT LIBERTY!!
Liberty is about doing what you want without harming others. Ron Paul thinks that abortion shouldn't be allowed because that would be harming the fetus.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:25 PM   #351
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,237
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Yes but if the topic of equality were ever brought up to any candidate, of course they would all say that they are for equality of all.
I haven't heard any other candidate (or their supporters) trumpet "equality for all." you keep saying that everyone would say that, but no one else HAS been saying that. Besides Kucinich, who walks the walk.


Quote:
And the only reason that I am going around saying that Ron Paul is for liberty for all is because it seemed like people incorrectly assumed that he is the only one who wants to leave the gay marriage issue to the states,
What? What kind of sense does that make? Because other people also aren't for equality for all, you're going to lie and say Ron Paul is?
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:30 PM   #352
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
Yes but if the topic of equality were ever brought up to any candidate, of course they would all say that they are for equality of all. And the only reason that I am going around saying that Ron Paul is for liberty for all is because it seemed like people incorrectly assumed that he is the only one who wants to leave the gay marriage issue to the states, when in fact Hillary does also and all the other Republicans actually want to take Federal measures to limit or ban gay marriage.
1. The candidates will say a lot of things about themselves that aren't true.

2. No one said nor acted like he was the only one.
__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:30 PM   #353
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,335
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Liberty is about doing what you want without harming others. Ron Paul thinks that abortion shouldn't be allowed because that would be harming the fetus.
Yep. And forcing a woman to have a child isn't harming her at all. It's what she was made for. Right?
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:50 PM   #354
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Yep. And forcing a woman to have a child isn't harming her at all. It's what she was made for. Right?
Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that is what she was made for.

And he wants to leave it to the states, not federally ban it.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:51 PM   #355
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen

Besides Kucinich, who walks the walk.

None of them besides Kucinich walk the walk.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:53 PM   #356
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,237
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Obama comes pretty close.

How about responding to the rest of that post?
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:53 PM   #357
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 05:31 PM
The link above is a recent interview with Ron Paul in 2007 where he specifically says that capital punishment is an appropriate penalty for states to impose. (About a third of the way through the interview when discussing abortion) I find when a politician uses a very specific phrase, there is a reason for it, which was why I kept pressing on the "federal abolishment of the death penalty". I wanted to wait until I could find something in his own words and his own voice. I believe as you noted he is personally against the death penalty but that it is a states issue.


ETA: link is not working. I'll try to relink.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:54 PM   #358
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


What? What kind of sense does that make? Because other people also aren't for equality for all, you're going to lie and say Ron Paul is?
Okay, I worded it wrong. What I was trying to say is that he is much more liberal than most of the candidates on the gay marriage issue, and he is not much different from Clinton on it.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:57 PM   #359
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


1. The candidates will say a lot of things about themselves that aren't true.

2. No one said nor acted like he was the only one.
1. I agree.

2. I just wanted to make it clear that he isn't the only one.
__________________
Infinity is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 11:57 PM   #360
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
Okay, I worded it wrong. What I was trying to say is that he is much more liberal than most of the candidates on the gay marriage issue, and he is not much different from Clinton on it.
And Obama holds the minimum humane stance, so, what's your point?
__________________

__________________
phillyfan26 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com