MERGED--> So...Ron Paul + Vote Ron Paul

[BVS]

Okay, if he had to choose between the fair tax and the income tax, he would pick the fair tax.

You honestly think he'll be able to not have to choose? He supports the fair tax bill, he didn't say well if I had to...

So, as President, he will do all he can to get rid of the IRS and the income tax. And he will not replace it with anything.

I think it's extremely naive for anyone to think he wouldn't replace it with anything.

 

[verte76]

It'll be interesting to see if the crapload of money he's been raising turns into votes.

Yeah.

 

[anitram]

These are excerpts from Ron Paul's self-published Ron Paul Political Report - this particular edition is from 1993 (commentary following the Rodney King incidents in LA). Found in its entirety here although there are many supremacist sites that also have copies proudly up.

This is a man you want as president?

Regardless of what the media tell us, most white Americans are not going to believe that they are at fault for what blacks have done to cities across America. The professional blacks may have cowed the elites, but good sense survives at the grass roots. Many more are going to have difficultly avoiding the belief that our country is being destroyed by a group of actual and potential terrorists -- and they can be identified by the color of their skin. This conclusion may not be entirely fair, but it is, for many, entirely unavoidable.

Indeed, it is shocking to consider the uniformity of opinion among blacks in this country. Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty, and the end of welfare and affirmative action.... Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the "criminal justice system," I think we can safely assume that 95% of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.

If similar in-depth studies were conducted in other major cities, who doubts that similar results would be produced? We are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, but it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings, and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers.

Perhaps the L.A. experience should not be surprising. The riots, burning, looting, and murders are only a continuation of 30 years of racial politics.The looting in L.A. was the welfare state without the voting booth. The elite have sent one message to black America for 30 years: you are entitled to something for nothing. That's what blacks got on the streets of L.A. for three days in April. Only they didn't ask their Congressmen to arrange the transfer.

The best part, of course is while he initially stated that he wrote these comments but they should be looked at in context (of the riots), in 2001 he gave an interview stating that it was really his staffers who wrote them.

 

[BVS]

What a good and decent man...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

That's frightening

 

[financeguy]

While a high % of young black African Americans are indeed involved in some form of criminality, and this is undoubtedly a problem (and it hasn't been solved by decades of welfare, left wingers on this forum should note), the above comments attributed to Ron Paul way back in 1992 are not the way to solve it.

It's instructive to note that Anitram chooses to quote some comments of dubious provenance made 15 years ago rather than turning to Ron Paul's currently active website, where one can find his current position. Some on this forum could learn a lot from the following:

"Racism
A nation that once prided itself on a sense of rugged individualism has become uncomfortably obsessed with racial group identities.

The collectivist mindset is at the heart of racism.

Government as an institution is particularly ill-suited to combat bigotry. Bigotry at its essence is a problem of the heart, and we cannot change people's hearts by passing more laws and regulations.

It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails. Government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. This leads to resentment and hostility among us.

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than as individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence - not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

In a free society, every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty. "

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/racism/

 

[anitram]

Racism will endure until we stop thinking in terms of groups and begin thinking in terms of individual liberty.

This is typical white-man speak which completely ignores the realities of life.

It's true Ron Paul said harsher things 14 years ago. However, that in itself would make me not vote for him, because anyone who had such views late into their adulthood should raise some serious eyebrows among thinking people.

If we are going to criticize Romney for flip flopping on abortion and adopting a different stance during his presidential candidacy than he had as a politician in Massachusetts, then we should equally address how politically expedient it is for Ron Paul to now couch things in more pleasant terms.

 

[BVS]

It is the federal government that most divides us by race, class, religion, and gender. Through its taxes, restrictive regulations, corporate subsidies, racial set-asides, and welfare programs, government plays far too large a role in determining who succeeds and who fails. Government "benevolence" crowds out genuine goodwill by institutionalizing group thinking, thus making each group suspicious that others are receiving more of the government loot. This leads to resentment and hostility among us.

I still see some of his past ignorances in his statement today. Welfare isn't based on race, religion, or gender the fact that he would lump this in their is still very telling.

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence - not skin color, gender, or ethnicity.

Yeah, I'm sure it's easy for a white male to say liberty is the antidote. It's easy to say let's remove all the restrictions and programs trying to level the playing field for someone who's never been turned down or passed over due to the color of his skin, gender, or sexuality.

Let's allow those "problems of the heart" to once again rule this country. Yeah, that's a great idea...

 

[Infinity]

I look at the big picture: End to the War in Iraq, Low Taxes, Low Spending.

Ron Paul may have said those kind of quotes, but name one candidate who has not said something considered to be wrong in most people's minds. Or name one candidate who has not misspoken or changed their minds on certain issues, etc.

Everyone has had their faults, it is understandable when people change their positions on issues.

I'm sure Giuliani, Clinton, Romney, Obama, McCain, Huckabee have all had their faults throughout their years. So I look at the opinions of the candidates on the issues that are important to me. Only one candidate has convinced me that he will both lower taxes and end the war in Iraq. And that is Ron Paul.

I'm sure I can go on the net and find things that any of the candidates have said throughout their political careers that they would be considered offensive.

 

[Infinity]

I think it's extremely naive for anyone to think he wouldn't replace it with anything.

I think its perfectly rational to get rid of the income tax and not replace it with anything. Remember, if income taxes weren't collected in 2006, the government would have earned the same amount of revenues as all the tax collections from 2000.

It is completely rational to think that we can live on the budget of 2000.

 

[phillyfan26]

Looking at the big picture is too dangerous. It blurs out important details. If someone said "low taxes," I'd say "Great! How?" Ignoring the how essentially allows anyone with a belief into office, regardless of a plan.

 

[Infinity]

You honestly think he'll be able to not have to choose? He supports the fair tax bill, he didn't say well if I had to...

It is like taking a small step towards an ultimate goal. The best thing would be to get rid of the income tax and not replace it. But it will be hard to convince people to do that. So a small step towards the fair tax will replace the income tax, but atleast it will get rid of the IRS.

 

[Infinity]

Looking at the big picture is too dangerous. It blurs out important details. If someone said "low taxes," I'd say "Great! How?" Ignoring the how essentially allows anyone with a belief into office, regardless of a plan.

Yes, of course you look at the details for the major issues. I'm not saying you don't. What I meant was that I don't care too much for quotes from the candidates that are offensive or wrong sayings or misspoken words, etc. The reason is that every candidate for every election has said things that are wrong in many people's minds.

But on a major issue of tax cutting, of course I want to look at the details. I'm not blindly supporting Ron Paul just because he says "low taxes." Every Republican says low taxes. The first time I heard Ron Paul say that he wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing, I didn't immediately believe him until I looked into the details and realized that the amount of tax revenues minus the income tax would still be enough to support the nation if we cut enough waste spending.

 

[martha]

I look at the big picture: End to the War in Iraq, Low Taxes, Low Spending.

Not the racist crap?

 

[phillyfan26]

Yes, of course you look at the details for the major issues. I'm not saying you don't. What I meant was that I don't care too much for quotes from the candidates that are offensive or wrong sayings or misspoken words, etc. The reason is that every candidate for every election has said things that are wrong in many people's minds.

But on a major issue of tax cutting, of course I want to look at the details. I'm not blindly supporting Ron Paul just because he says "low taxes." Every Republican says low taxes. The first time I heard Ron Paul say that he wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing, I didn't immediately believe him until I looked into the details and realized that the amount of tax revenues minus the income tax would still be enough to support the nation if we cut enough waste spending.

Why do the quotes not matter? They're actually very good insight into what the real beliefs of the person are, as opposed to just a this or that kind of thing you'd see on some list. They're very important.

There's a difference between disagreeing and offensive when it comes to these quotes. The quote there was offensive.

It seemed to me from your post that you were using "Big Picture" as a cop out to avert from the details and the problems with his plan. Fair enough if that's not the case.

 

[BVS]

Ron Paul may have said those kind of quotes, but name one candidate who has not said something considered to be wrong in most people's minds. Or name one candidate who has not misspoken or changed their minds on certain issues, etc.

This wasn't a slip of the tongue, or a bad joke, this was written in his book. And it's not just something that may be "considered to be wrong in most people's minds," it was just flat out racist.

Yes, people can change their minds, but like Anitram said, for anyone to have these views in their adult life raises some eyebrows.

 

[BVS]

I think its perfectly rational to get rid of the income tax and not replace it with anything. Remember, if income taxes weren't collected in 2006, the government would have earned the same amount of revenues as all the tax collections from 2000.

It is completely rational to think that we can live on the budget of 2000.

Yeah, but that's just one year. Where are we going to be after a decade of no income tax?

 

[Infinity]

Not the racist crap?

No, because I doubt that what he said will have any effect on any policy if he gets elected. He still believes in 0% Income Tax and an end to the war in Iraq. That is what is important to me.

 

[Infinity]

Yeah, but that's just one year. Where are we going to be after a decade of no income tax?

What do you mean? I don't get your question. There will still be growth in non-income tax revenues. So obviously in the year 2020, even if there will be no income tax, we'd have more revenues then the year 2000.

The point i'm trying to make is that if the government collected the same amount of money as in 2000 for 2007, it won't be a problem if we cut enough of crap spending.

 

[Infinity]

Why do the quotes not matter? They're actually very good insight into what the real beliefs of the person are, as opposed to just a this or that kind of thing you'd see on some list. They're very important.

There's a difference between disagreeing and offensive when it comes to these quotes. The quote there was offensive.

It seemed to me from your post that you were using "Big Picture" as a cop out to avert from the details and the problems with his plan. Fair enough if that's not the case.

I understand he said those things. And I can definitely see why they were offensive and I wouldn't want anyone to say anything like that about my race. But when he gets elected I hugely doubt any racist policy will make it through the system, if those are really his personal beliefs.

Look, there are no perfect candidates. If someone was running who is willing to cut taxes and end the war the same way Ron Paul is, and if I would like that other person's personality, etc. more, i'd probably vote for that other person.

But is someone like that running? No. So from the pool of candidates, Ron Paul best fits me. If Ron Paul wasn't running, I would be probably be supporting Barack Obama, I think I like him the second most.


Speaking of which, I really doubt Ron Paul is racist, really. The reason is that before he started running for the Republican nomination this year, he was a BARACK OBAMA supporter. He wouldn't have suppored Obama if he was racist.

 

[Infinity]

This wasn't a slip of the tongue, or a bad joke, this was written in his book. And it's not just something that may be "considered to be wrong in most people's minds," it was just flat out racist.

Yes, people can change their minds, but like Anitram said, for anyone to have these views in their adult life raises some eyebrows.

I understand what you are saying. Adults do change their minds though. And I can completely see why what he said can be considered racist. But as I said in my above post, I doubt he is racist.

 

[BVS]

What do you mean? I don't get your question. There will still be growth in non-income tax revenues. So obviously in the year 2020, even if there will be no income tax, we'd have more revenues then the year 2000.

The point i'm trying to make is that if the government collected the same amount of money as in 2000 for 2007, it won't be a problem if we cut enough of crap spending.

Yes, but you are making a very complex economic issue into a very simple one line statement.

My point is that if one year of not collecting income tax, like your example, would have set us back 6 years. Which is fine, we could probably live off our 2000 revenue if MAJOR changes in spending were made, but they would have to be huge. This completely ignores inflation, our defecit spending as of late, and other economic factors.

 

[Infinity]

Yes, but you are making a very complex economic issue into a very simple one line statement.

My point is that if one year of not collecting income tax, like your example, would have set us back 6 years. Which is fine, we could probably live off our 2000 revenue if MAJOR changes in spending were made, but they would have to be huge. This completely ignores inflation, our defecit spending as of late, and other economic factors.

Exactly, we would need to have major changes in spending. That is one thing that Ron Paul hasn't denied. He doesn't just say "cut taxes" without adding in that we need to cut spending.

 

[phillyfan26]

I understand he said those things. And I can definitely see why they were offensive and I wouldn't want anyone to say anything like that about my race. But when he gets elected I hugely doubt any racist policy will make it through the system, if those are really his personal beliefs.

Speaking of which, I really doubt Ron Paul is racist, really. The reason is that before he started running for the Republican nomination this year, he was a BARACK OBAMA supporter. He wouldn't have suppored Obama if he was racist.

Or maybe Obama fits into his 5% of black non-criminals?

 

[financeguy]

Or maybe Obama fits into his 5% of black non-criminals?

Are you an alter of BVS? Your posts and his have become practically indistinguishable.

 

[BVS]

Speaking of which, I really doubt Ron Paul is racist, really. The reason is that before he started running for the Republican nomination this year, he was a BARACK OBAMA supporter. He wouldn't have suppored Obama if he was racist.

What do you mean he was a Barack supporter. Barack announced in February, Paul formed his exploratory commitee in February(before Barack announced) and then announced in March.

 

[BVS]

Are you an alter of BVS? Your posts and his have become practically indistinguishable.

Yes I have the ability to be a 33 year old living in TX who can't stand watching baseball and a highschool student in Philly who loves baseball.

I am that talented!!!

 

[phillyfan26]

Are you an alter of BVS? Your posts and his have become practically indistinguishable.

Not at all. BVS posts in only a few forums. I post ... everywhere but PLEBA.

And I don't think we are eye to eye on all views, it just so happens to be on most of them, or at least the primary few talked about in here. There are a lot of issues out there.

 

[BVS]

Exactly, we would need to have major changes in spending. That is one thing that Ron Paul hasn't denied. He doesn't just say "cut taxes" without adding in that we need to cut spending.

I understand that, but you are still making it extremely simplified. How much of the Senate is going to support all these cuts to their fancy lifestyles or support his changes in policy. Can he do this, just because he says it...

Plus the cuts in spending would have to come well before the removal of income tax.

 

[Irvine511]

i dunno.

i just think that the Ron Paul candidacy is a gigantic middle finger to the GOP establishment by the four or five people left who aren't who either war mongers with a hard-on for empire or religious fanatics who think that if America would just turn to Jesus then crime would go away.