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Old 09-15-2005, 05:04 AM   #61
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Originally posted by LJT
You could say our collective memory is ooo about 500 years give or take a hundred

Yeh i guess that collective memory thing would apply...irish culture is very family/community based...what happens one of us effects most of us in a way or we feel it as being so.

If any other Irish people are about..what do you guys think?
While I would not disagree with your analysis of the situation, I personally think all forms of excessive nationalism are a kind of psychological cancer.
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:14 AM   #62
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The quote button is going to get a lot of use in this post LJT! Firstly though, thanks for the information and secondly, I'm not at all offended by what you've said (should I be?!). I just hope I've not offended you.

My first point about Nottingham was just my clumsy way of saying if Nottingham (which I think I can fairly safely say wasn't a place you used to associate with gun shootouts) can have the highest rate of gun crime in the UK despite the fact that it has no real history of such violence what hope is there for NI that does have such a history?

My second rambling point that even I aren't really sure what my point was:

Yes, I accept that the current events are just redressing the balance that was tipped out of Catholic favour for so long (the Gerrymandering in particular) but perhaps what scares people is they aren't sure how far that 'balance' is going to tip the other way. You could say that after hundreds of years of 'Protestant tyranny' perhaps it's only fair that Catholics get the upper hand... (if you could call it that). But what NI needs is balance and, as you say, intregration but Lara's experience doesn't exactly sound a very happy one and at least in your own communities you feel safer. So how you'd persuade people to get this intregation I haven't a clue.

As for Paisley, wasn't one of his favourite jaunts to hold speeches outside of a famous Belfast landmark then finish the night by leading the crowd through the catholic areas on a rampage of destruction?

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loyalists what the violence back because peace means many of them lose their little drug pushing paradises and control over their areas. The violence they have undertaken recently is just really to goad the IRA back into action in some form, they want an enemy so they can keep going and have an excuse for violence.
But surely this cuts both ways? The IRA was said to be on the point of collapse due to the arrest of many of its leaders but surely there will be other Republican extremist groups who aren't happy about the peace either for the exact same reasons.

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And you know if you are going to say Sinn Fein were a party for terrorists
I honestly didn't know that they were created independently of each other. But now SF are the political wing of the IRA aren't they? The fact that the government talks to them but not the PUP seems to reflect what loyalists were saying, they feel left out of the peace process. Not that I want them talking to any such groups at all you understand. I suppose the only reason the government are talking to SF is that they're the biggest Republican party in NI so they don't have a lot of choice. Whereas PUP aren't the biggest so the Gov can ignore them at will.

I'm gonna start a new post in a minute, I don't want this one getting too long.
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:56 AM   #63
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Stop bloody well logging me out!!

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Mo Mowlam, went to the Maze prison and spoke to loyalist inmates
I know, that was my point. That whether it be Loyalist or Republican terrorists the reaction of many has been the same. You just don't talk to them.

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but when Unionists talk about 'oooh they let nationalist prisoners out' well Johnny Adair has been in and out like a yoyo
Well, at least that's something equal between the two sides. It may not be good thing, but it's something. (sorry, not something to really joke about I know) As for it being the stupidest part of GFA, I agree completely. Let's build on the peace in NI by releasing all the terrorists! I know there were good reasons behind the decision but for every ex-inmate who reforms there are lots others who won't. It hardly invokes confidence.

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I do not see how you can view NI as going all out to rejoin with the Republic...one of the conditions of the GFA (Good Friday Agreement) was to state that there would be no reunification unless there was a majority who wished for it decided by a vote. As it stands it will probably take a 100 odd years for that to ever happen, there is still a Protestant majority in NI even though it is only about 51 to 49 percent now. Under the GFA it could only therefore be decided by a majority. The Unionists though even if there was a majority would never want a unified Ireland...it wouldn't matter if there was only a 5% percent Unionist population they would not accept a unified Ireland.
Another important condition of GFA was the rewriting of RoI's constitution to get rid of the territorial claim to NI. That seems to me to be a very important one that no-one ever really mentions but as it has little to do with/actually contradicts my argument I'll gloss over it if that's OK!

It's not as straight forward as Protestant Vs Catholics though is it? Not all Catholics want to leave the UK and not all Protestants want to remain part of it either. It may not be many but with the demographics so close it could make all the difference. I agree about the Unionists but look at the situation now, the nationalists aren't going to accept NI as separate from RoI either. That's the tragedy. NI's caught in a Catch22.

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If anyone thinks the big problem in NI was the IRA, hey they were a big problem, but by no means were the IRA the only wrongdoers, the unionists began it along with discriminating British governments over 200-300 years.
I don't think that IRA were the only wrongdoers; far from it. You reap what you sow. Perhaps if we'd treated Ireland better we wouldn't have this problem now. In fact I'm horrified that we let the Stormont Government go on for as long as it did. I know that the direct rule from 1972 was hardly 'liberation' as it were but surely it wasn't worse? (You're gonna tell me it was aren't you?)

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Don't get me wrong the IRA was just as bad as the UVF or whoever
I remember reading a quotation from some person or other: "The IRA weren't worse terrorists than the UVF they were just better at it".

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but i am nationalist at heart, so i can not help but sympathise with the cause at the beginning
Of-course you do and I can really understand that.

Quote:
Why are loyalists behaving like this now? Because they are losing the power they once had
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it's no wonder loyalist paramilitaries are behaving as they are because they can see their power slowly slipping through their fingers
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they are trying to make themselves out to be in the situation of Catholics years ago
I think they've got quite some distance to go before they reach that stage! It's a ridiculous thing for them to claim. It would make far more sense to attack the issue from a "But we want the NI of the future to be an equal one and how can it be equal if we aren't been consulted" slant (ie. Look to the future) than continually focusing on the past.

Third post coming up in a bit. (Sorry this is taking so long)
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:58 AM   #64
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Originally posted by financeguy
Jamila raises some valid points in her opening post.

Of course she is correct in pointing out that violence in Northern Ireland does not emanate exclusively from Republicans.

In fact the 1969-1994 Troubles were intially sparked off by Loyalist attempted progroms against Nationalists, not by the IRA.

Of course, the IRA response was totally disproportionate and evil.

Anyway that is just to explain the (recent) historical context.

On a side note I don't buy the idea that this is about Protestant versus Catholic. It is more to do with national identity than religion, in my view. Religion is only a side issue.
Oh i agree it is more about national identity than anything else....but religion has been a spark at many times that has allowed the tension and violence to kick off.

I think we need to put out a more definitive history on this place somewhere, that way it makes it easier to answer questions, as if anybody ever asks me a question about here i do generally give them the full history...that is never fun
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:11 AM   #65
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Originally posted by financeguy


While I would not disagree with your analysis of the situation, I personally think all forms of excessive nationalism are a kind of psychological cancer.
where you place the idea of your country ahead of it's people is as you say a psychological cancer.

I am sorry if i came across aswrongly biased in my analysis to anyone, 'the heart can rule the head'...and i do not hold any ill-filling towards English people or Protestants...it is kinda something i fear coming across like when talking about this
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:39 AM   #66
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The final post...finally!

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What reason?
No, really, it sounds stupid and slightly selfish.

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The Republic is the 8th best place to live in the world at the moment....higher than the UK
I would say congrats but frankly being higher than the UK isn't saying much! Though RoI has really turned itself around and it should be congratulated for that. Which reminds me, you know how you said you could sympathise with the cause in the beginning? Well, I can also see the Protestant side of things. Yes, the main fear was their loss of power in an united Ireland but if you look at the Catholic Church in RoI in its earlier years it does seem quite...... questionable in some of the things it did. I'm not saying that Protestantism in England was exactly perfect but the dominance of the Catholic Church in RoI would surely be a reason for NI Protestants to really not want to join the rest of Ireland? Still I suppose there are the Protestant Ulster counties in RoI and they seemed happy enough. This is all in the past though. You obviously couldn't say the same about the dominace of Catholicism today. Partly because it isn't so intregrated into the state there now and also because Catholicism itself has changed for the better.

I've remembered something else too:
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....i live in an all catholic area...how many places in the UK are like that?
In terms of all Catholic, very few. But in terms of areas of cities being one ethnic group or religion, most places. London has lots of areas where one group is predominent. Bradford's nickname says a lot about the racial intregation of the place (not that I've ever been to Bradford and I hope that nickname is meant with affection rather than the blantant racism it invites), Leeds also has areas where it's one ethnic group only. In fact I'd say most cities.

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the chinese's around
What's their opinion on the whole thing?

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Northern Ireland is crap we would probably knock the Republic down to around 50th in the world.
So it's YOUR fault the UK is so low down is it?!!

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My identity is of an Irish man...i am not Northern Irish or British...i am just Irish
There was an interesting question about this on another message board. A Unionist asked (nicely) to a Nationalist whether they felt Irish or British or any duality in their identity. The Nationalist felt exactly the same as you but the Unionist felt (if I remember correctly) a duality in their identity. That they were both Irish and British. Wonder whether the hardcore loyalists feel a 'dual identity' or not?

Quote:
I hope this has helped in some way and sorry it's hard to explain some things here if i don't go into detail.....
It's helped a lot, thank you. You've not changed my opinion about NI but I wonder if that Yorkshire Independence Party would take off...
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:41 AM   #67
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Yorkshire..is that even a real place

It is going to be a long day at the office
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Old 09-15-2005, 07:44 AM   #68
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Originally posted by LJT
Yorkshire..is that even a real place
You may know it better as Utopia
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:12 AM   #69
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
Not when you consider places like Nottingham being called the 'gun crime capital of the UK' (Hope you're enjoying uni there btw Nikki!).

Sorry to interrupt but who is this Nikki? Just I am about to start uni in Nottingham..
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:44 AM   #70
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
[B]The quote button is going to get a lot of use in this post LJT! Firstly though, thanks for the information and secondly, I'm not at all offended by what you've said (should I be?!). I just hope I've not offended you.
You haven't mate no worries

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My first point about Nottingham was just my clumsy way of saying if Nottingham (which I think I can fairly safely say wasn't a place you used to associate with gun shootouts) can have the highest rate of gun crime in the UK despite the fact that it has no real history of such violence what hope is there for NI that does have such a history?
very little i am afraid.

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Yes, I accept that the current events are just redressing the balance that was tipped out of Catholic favour for so long (the Gerrymandering in particular) but perhaps what scares people is they aren't sure how far that 'balance' is going to tip the other way. You could say that after hundreds of years of 'Protestant tyranny' perhaps it's only fair that Catholics get the upper hand... (if you could call it that). But what NI needs is balance and, as you say, intregration but Lara's experience doesn't exactly sound a very happy one and at least in your own communities you feel safer. So how you'd persuade people to get this intregation I haven't a clue.
Complete integration will not come until people here want it....which again will not be a long time yet.

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But surely this cuts both ways? The IRA was said to be on the point of collapse due to the arrest of many of its leaders but surely there will be other Republican extremist groups who aren't happy about the peace either for the exact same reasons.
Yeh there is the Continuity IRA and other dissident Republicans that are just as evil as any loyalist. They would love the violence to continue...but the official IRA which was the main republican player throughout the Troubles...they were what the British and police forces here focused on....not the loyalists....of course we then had collusion between the british forces and loyalists in order to take out leading nationalists (still contentious)...so why did they work with terrorists themselves...loyalism has never had the focus that republicanism has had placed on it...now it is rightly getting so.

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I honestly didn't know that they were created independently of each other. But now SF are the political wing of the IRA aren't they? The fact that the government talks to them but not the PUP seems to reflect what loyalists were saying, they feel left out of the peace process. Not that I want them talking to any such groups at all you understand. I suppose the only reason the government are talking to SF is that they're the biggest Republican party in NI so they don't have a lot of choice. Whereas PUP aren't the biggest so the Gov can ignore them at will.
Well the Gov did not always listen to Sinn Fein....the PUP are insignificant and a joke, they are only known because they represent the UVF politically, but they are not a voted for party by the loyalist people...most loyalists voted for the DUP which the government talks to...the Gov had to talk to Sinn Fein because it had a large body of nationalist support...PUP are a waste of space and talking to David Irvine is like talking to a clown He doesn't even have much power, if any over loyalists. I would seriously worry if anyone was taking the PUP seriously unless they were delivering messages from the UVF which they hardly ever do.

The Government has engaged with unionism far longer that it has with nationalism, so if they feel left out of the peace process, fine by me, that is their own fault because they can't handle a peaceful NI. Loyalism has fabricated it's own feelings of alienation and 2nd class citizenship...what has happened is alevelled playing field, thus they feel that they have lost so much and are so underprivileged...personally that is bullshit...they have created their own problems because they closed themselves off from everyone else....loyalism is very much a one track siege mentality, even when there is no war, nationalism and republicanism can adapt it is more open minded in a way to adapt to new situations and new things in general....loyalism just can't handle change...and it is not because catholics have the upper hand, it is because they just can't deal with anything else other than loyalism having power over the North...it is all in their own heads this idea that they are downtrodden and all that crap.
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Old 09-15-2005, 09:12 AM   #71
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Re: Stop bloody well logging me out!!

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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
Well, at least that's something equal between the two sides. It may not be good thing, but it's something. (sorry, not something to really joke about I know) As for it being the stupidest part of GFA, I agree completely. Let's build on the peace in NI by releasing all the terrorists! I know there were good reasons behind the decision but for every ex-inmate who reforms there are lots others who won't. It hardly invokes confidence.
It just repopulates the terrorist groups.

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Another important condition of GFA was the rewriting of RoI's constitution to get rid of the territorial claim to NI. That seems to me to be a very important one that no-one ever really mentions but as it has little to do with/actually contradicts my argument I'll gloss over it if that's OK!
The DUP has always negated what was in the GFA, their people get fed their lies, and as a result the GFA is pretty much dead and buried.

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It's not as straight forward as Protestant Vs Catholics though is it? Not all Catholics want to leave the UK and not all Protestants want to remain part of it either. It may not be many but with the demographics so close it could make all the difference. I agree about the Unionists but look at the situation now, the nationalists aren't going to accept NI as separate from RoI either. That's the tragedy. NI's caught in a Catch22.
Well most Catholics would be nationalist...probably something like 99.99999% are nationalists or some form of it...but there would be more Protestant's that consider themselves Irish than there would be Catholics here in the North that consider themselves British. It is not strictly a Protestant, Catholic divide but it is as good as but Financeguy is right in saying it is a more identity thing that plainly religious trouble. Nationalists are more patient i believe....there is a great deal of difference psychologically between Nationalism and Unionism...unionism loves the status quo, wants back all its control over here...Nationalism is more forward thinking (at least i think it is), it adapts more to the times....Unionism just can't

Quote:
I don't think that IRA were the only wrongdoers; far from it. You reap what you sow. Perhaps if we'd treated Ireland better we wouldn't have this problem now. In fact I'm horrified that we let the Stormont Government go on for as long as it did. I know that the direct rule from 1972 was hardly 'liberation' as it were but surely it wasn't worse? (You're gonna tell me it was aren't you?)
Well considering there was 30 years of violence after 1972, which then involved bombings in England....you tell me

Quote:
I remember reading a quotation from some person or other: "The IRA weren't worse terrorists than the UVF they were just better at it".
The IRA were excellent at what they did...at a time they were known as the best bomb makers in the world, they were experts and better organised than the loyalists. Tales of exploding packs of digestives lend some truth to this...they could wip up a rocket launcher from a bit of pipe.

[quote] I think they've got quite some distance to go before they reach that stage! It's a ridiculous thing for them to claim. It would make far more sense to attack the issue from a "But we want the NI of the future to be an equal one and how can it be equal if we aren't been consulted" slant (ie. Look to the future) than continually focusing on the past. [quote]

They are consulted the DUP is the largest political party in the North...they are consulted as i have said this idea that they are not talked to is basically false...they either talk to refuse to talk themselves, the Gov has tried to talk with them...but they want their turn as victims and so play up. They are not ignored or sidelined...and if so it has always been by there own choice. They have always focused around saying 'NO'...they can't do anything else....they are an outdated ideology...as much as republican terrorism.
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Old 09-15-2005, 09:35 AM   #72
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Re: The final post...finally!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheQuiet1
Quote:
No, really, it sounds stupid and slightly selfish.
Go on, go on, go on go on go on......

Quote:
I would say congrats but frankly being higher than the UK isn't saying much! Though RoI has really turned itself around and it should be congratulated for that. Which reminds me, you know how you said you could sympathise with the cause in the beginning? Well, I can also see the Protestant side of things. Yes, the main fear was their loss of power in an united Ireland but if you look at the Catholic Church in RoI in its earlier years it does seem quite...... questionable in some of the things it did. I'm not saying that Protestantism in England was exactly perfect but the dominance of the Catholic Church in RoI would surely be a reason for NI Protestants to really not want to join the rest of Ireland? Still I suppose there are the Protestant Ulster counties in RoI and they seemed happy enough. This is all in the past though. You obviously couldn't say the same about the dominace of Catholicism today. Partly because it isn't so intregrated into the state there now and also because Catholicism itself has changed for the better.
The Catholic Church down south certainly abused its power, but that was against its own...but i know of nothing relating to it actively promoting discrimination of Protestants...or burning people out of their homes, or their rights being denied. Protestants in the north have a pathological fear of Catholicism, due to such firebrands as Ian Paisley, who believes Line dancing to be evil and who set up his own church....Irish Catholics throughout the 1700s and 1800s were discrimanted against by a Protestant minority who held the land. Again its in their heads that they have created their own demons.....there are many Protestants down south leading very happy lives....Financeguy would probably know better...but i really doubt protestants have it any different to catholics in the republic.

Quote:
In terms of all Catholic, very few. But in terms of areas of cities being one ethnic group or religion, most places. London has lots of areas where one group is predominent. Bradford's nickname says a lot about the racial intregation of the place (not that I've ever been to Bradford and I hope that nickname is meant with affection rather than the blantant racism it invites), Leeds also has areas where it's one ethnic group only. In fact I'd say most cities.
It was a bad example on my part...the first time i ever spoke face to face with someone of another race was last December in Oxford...Belfast is not just that ethnically mixed...there are more Philipinos now and Chineseas well as more blacks....but still a very white and Catholic/Protestant place.

Racism is abundant here as Loyalism has always had racist group links. The Chinese population gets targeted a lot. This kind of environment breeds racism and it is also in Nationalist communities though i would not say it is as bad as amongst loyalism.

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So it's YOUR fault the UK is so low down is it?!!
You bet

Quote:
There was an interesting question about this on another message board. A Unionist asked (nicely) to a Nationalist whether they felt Irish or British or any duality in their identity. The Nationalist felt exactly the same as you but the Unionist felt (if I remember correctly) a duality in their identity. That they were both Irish and British. Wonder whether the hardcore loyalists feel a 'dual identity' or not?
In Northern Ireland we are British citizens and Irish ones...we get to pick and chose...my identity is Irish, so my passport is Irish etc What is a British identity anyway? I mean to me it has always seemed a form of English identity that has been tried to be imposed on everyone on these two islands.....Scots i am sure see themselves as Scots..not British surely?..if someone asked you what was your nationality? would you say English or British?...there is very little difference between them both...it just seems like a new word for imposing a from of English culture on us all (not that English culture is bad, jus my culture is Irish not some new form of Englishness) British is not a cultural identity is it? Everything about a British culture 'seems' to be distinctly English that is used to adapt different cultures to it such as Indian and all that...but when i think British, i think of things that are English...Welsh people see themselves as Welsh....why do the Unionists here who live in an island called Ireland..wish to be known as British, when they have been here for 500 odd years...why not Irish? I am sure southern Protestants see themselves as Irish....it just seems daft.
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Old 09-15-2005, 10:24 AM   #73
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Originally posted by {paintedroses}



Sorry to interrupt but who is this Nikki? Just I am about to start uni in Nottingham..
A friend of mine who's doing a computer course thing (it does have a proper name I'm sure) at Nottingham. Recently voted one of top ten worst cities in the UK. Hull came out top BTW, got a friend who's going there too. So enjoy your uni stay there as well!

lol. A lot of people from Nottingham reckon it's a great place. i'm sure you'll love it.

And as for NI. I suppose the Nationalists have got everything to gain and the Unionists everything to lose.

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Go on, go on, go on go on go on......
but still no.

I take your point about Britishness and you're absolutely right, most English people say they're British, everyone else says Scottish or whatever. But that said, some English people think we should make more of our English culture. We don't celebrate St George's Day like the rest do, St George's flag isn't as commonly used as a union jack, if anything Britishness has eroded away the English identity of themselves because however 'English' Britishness might be, it still means the English are being lumped in under one banner with the rest of the UK. The fact that Britishness and Englishness are sometimes used interchangably by foreigners could be used to show either the dominance of England in the UK or the lack of a distinct English culture.

But what is Britishness anyway? It's like people talking about a 'British' accent. There isn't even a standard English accent, never mind a British one! We're all different. Even within England itself. You couldn't compare Brighton to Hull. Southerners and Northerners are very culturally different traditionally. Look at the popularity of rugby and cricket in Yorkshire, they don't have the same popularity in say, Cornwall. One guy I used to go to school with used to have a great T-shirt that just said NORTHERNER on it.

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someone asked you what was your nationality? would you say English or British?...
Yorkshire Or maybe I'm being serious. I'd probably say British but then clarify that with I'm from North Yorkshire in England or something like that. I'd be awkward.

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why do the Unionists here who live in an island called Ireland..wish to be known as British, when they have been here for 500 odd years...why not Irish?
I can't answer that question, especially as I can't even define what Britishness is! There's gotta be a Unionist on here somewhere who can answer that, surely?
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Old 09-15-2005, 11:38 AM   #74
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I don't think a unionist U2 fan exists...i have never ever met one or even heard of one...big Ian probably thinks it's the devil's music
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Old 09-15-2005, 12:30 PM   #75
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The difference between britishness and englishness in foreign countries is similar to the problem we are facing here in Germany.
Abroad many people think we all are wearing leatherhoses, yodel a lot, drink wheat beer and our colours are blue and white. But that is only Bavaria, and Bavaria really is not like the rest of Germany. It calls itself a free state and has an own culture.
The very north of Bavaria again, Frankonia, is very similiar to Bavaria, too. But that's a historic problem.
Outside of Bavaria the people are very different.

But that's a bit offtopic.
We took the GDR even that it was economically far away from the West-Germany. And despite we are facing some problems with it, which's also because both the politics and the economy made some mistakes we took this country.
I don't think that NI would survive if it was independent, so either GB or the Republic would have to take this country. At the moment I doubt there is any chance to unify with the Republic, and most citizens of NI know that.
So there seems to be no need for the loyalists to start any riots.
But if a person or group of people is/are afraid of losing power he/they will do all to keep this power.
Would be nice if this had an end in the next few years.

I'm missing international leaders to critizise what was going on in Belfast. It's like nothing happened but there were at least three days of riots and there could have been several deads. But maybe there was critizism and I didn't hear from it.
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