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Old 07-14-2006, 03:15 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
I don't understand why you claim that people with no moral fiber are wrong in any way.
I'm not sure if I've actually said that...
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:24 PM   #62
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Imagine a multiple car-car collision at a busy junction near your home. It’s an occurrence that shouldn’t be hard to picture. Now stretch your imagination further. Every one runs into the junction to explain his or her side of the story: 'You pulled out in front of me!' 'But I had the right of way. Don’t you know that red means stop?' Pedestrians who witnessed the accident from the curb interject what they saw. A trucker with an elevated, commanding view of the junction weighs in. Then perhaps the guilty part steps forward: 'Well, actually, it was my fault. I was talking on my car phone. I wasn’t paying attention to what I was doing. I caused the accident.'

For all the post-accident debate, when a police officer arrives and begins taking notes, one truth will be clear: an accident happened. And in time, other truths will be determined. Ultimately, a description of the accident will emerge that corresponds to reality.

We live our lives relying on the belief that objective truth exists. We gather evidence; weigh credibility and truthfulness; make difficult judgments. In the end, we arrive at a close proximity to truth. We can make truthful statements that describe with reasonable accuracy how events really happened.

Truth is more than our subjective reporting of a car crash. It has objective existence. It has universal application.

“Truth is true – even if no one knows it
Truth is true – even if no one admits it
Truth is true – even if no one agrees what it is
Truth is true – even if no one follows it
Truth is true – even if no one but God grasps it fully” (Dr. Paul Copan)
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm not sure if I've actually said that...
I'm assuming you believe it, otherwise I could come to the conclusion that you don't have a problem with people who have no morals.
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:46 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
It seems to me like all Melon is saying is that right and wrong truly is decided by culture.
Well if that was what he is saying - then what would he do if 90% of the culture decides that being a homosexual was a crime worthy of a painful, drawn out, execution? Simply say "hey, that's the cultural consensus."

Were the Nazi's right to burn Jews because most of the country's population loved Hitler and were anti-Semitic at the time?

Sure – we do inherit much of our “opinions” of right and wrong from our culture. However, there is a distinct difference, as I have pointed out, between the opinions of moral laws and the reality of the moral laws.

A blind man can’t see the moon – but the moon still exists. The moon existed before life arrived to observe it. The existence of the moon is not dependent on a person, or a culture, to perceive it. The same with moral laws.

If you really want to geek out on some classical reading on this subject - read Plato’s Euthyphro. It is a great dialogue about this very topic.
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:48 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

For all the post-accident debate, when a police officer arrives and begins taking notes, one truth will be clear: an accident happened. And in time, other truths will be determined. Ultimately, a description of the accident will emerge that corresponds to reality.

Not exactly. Not always. Let's say one of the persons involved is an elderly woman. Let's say she's also a different race than all the others involved.

So the elderly woman is obviously shaken by the experience, she feels she was in the right away. But after some forceful debate she's convinced it's her fault. And some of the onlookers may have gender, age, or racial bias so their views may be slanted.

So then what do you get?
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:53 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


I'm assuming you believe it, otherwise I could come to the conclusion that you don't have a problem with people who have no morals.
For one thing assumptions are a dangerous thing.

The other thing is that your conclusion lacks logic. There is a lot of in between, and we're talking about an exception to the rule.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:02 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not exactly. Not always. Let's say one of the persons involved is an elderly woman. Let's say she's also a different race than all the others involved.

So the elderly woman is obviously shaken by the experience, she feels she was in the right away. But after some forceful debate she's convinced it's her fault. And some of the onlookers may have gender, age, or racial bias so their views may be slanted.

So then what do you get?
You would get many different opinions that will most likely lead to false conclusions, but that doesn't have any bearing on the facts on what actually happened - it would have bearing on the opinions of what happened.

But everyone does go into such a debate knowing there is an objective truth to what happened, the struggle is getting to it. Think "CSI." We use all of our faculties to find truth all of the time because inherently, we know that truth does indeed exists. And if understanding the truth about a car wreck or murder is important - think of how much more important it is to find the truth about why we are here and what we are supposed to do with the time we are given.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:09 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

You would get many different opinions that will most likely lead to false conclusions, but that doesn't have any bearing on the facts on what actually happened - it would have bearing on the opinions of what happened.

But when the accident is reported it's now "fact". Although that fact won't be really what happened.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:11 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But when the accident is reported it's now "fact". Although that fact won't be really what happened.
You are actually making the case for objectivity in this statement. You are saying there is such a thing as "what really happened."
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:11 PM   #70
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not to speak for Melon, but i think his passionate arguments against any kind of mutilation are less because it's objectively wrong in a cosmic sense and more because he (and we) have been raised in a society that has arrived at the consensus that mutilation is wrong. culturally objective? maybe? i dunno.
Well, I'm curious to see what Melon says. I'll refrain from further guessing about what he might say till then.

But I do question whether we truly accept the societal consensus model of moral behavior. If we did, we'd look at say, FGM, and say to ourselves. . ."Whew, I'm glad we live in a culture where we condemn such practices and (carrying Melon's arguments on male circumcision) what few elements of mutilation still left in our culture we can speak against as wrong since cultural consensus is on our side." And then we'd have to say of FGM in Africa. . .well, that's their culture, their belief, we have to leave it alone. But we don't do that. We believe that while it is "their culture" it is wrong because of the harm and trauma it causes to other people.

And what about Aeon's example about 90% of a culture opposing homosexuality? Does that then make it immoral?
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:29 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


You are actually making the case for objectivity in this statement. You are saying there is such a thing as "what really happened."
Well of course when we're making the scenarios up, we'll know there's a "what really happened", but in real life that police report would be fact. And that's where it would end.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well of course when we're making the scenarios up, we'll know there's a "what really happened", but in real life that police report would be fact. And that's where it would end.
So you are asserting there is not a "what really happened" in real life accidents?

Remember, there is a distinct difference between knowing/perceiving the truth (epistemology), and there actually being a truth (ontology).

My question, for this discussion, was basically: “do Objective Moral Laws exist?” – It was not: “Do we know all of the Objective Moral Laws.”
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:05 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


So you are asserting there is not a "what really happened" in real life accidents?
I'm saying we will never know it.


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

My question, for this discussion, was basically: “do Objective Moral Laws exist?” – It was not: “Do we know all of the Objective Moral Laws.”
Truthfully, I'm on the fence. I see a lot of gray between your stance and Melon's. I think mostly due to the blurriness of language...
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:13 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Were the Nazi's right to burn Jews because most of the country's population loved Hitler and were anti-Semitic at the time?

Your logic is deeply flawed here.
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:43 PM   #75
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Quote:
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Your logic is deeply flawed here.


not to mention historically inaccurate.
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