MERGED--> Nukes for this nut-job? + Iranian nukes

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

toscano

Refugee
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Messages
2,032
Nukes for this nut-job ?

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. The trinkets were meant to be inspirational. After Iraq invaded in September 1980, it had quickly become clear that Iran's forces were no match for Saddam Hussein's professional, well-armed military. To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they marched in formation across minefields toward the enemy, clearing a path with their bodies. Before every mission, one of the Taiwanese keys would be hung around each child's neck. It was supposed to open the gates to paradise for them.

At one point, however, the earthly gore became a matter of concern. "In the past," wrote the semi-official Iranian daily Ettelaat as the war raged on, "we had child-volunteers: 14-, 15-, and 16-year-olds. They went into the minefields. Their eyes saw nothing. Their ears heard nothing. And then, a few moments later, one saw clouds of dust. When the dust had settled again, there was nothing more to be seen of them. Somewhere, widely scattered in the landscape, there lay scraps of burnt flesh and pieces of bone." Such scenes would henceforth be avoided, Ettelaat assured its readers. "Before entering the minefields, the children [now] wrap themselves in blankets and they roll on the ground, so that their body parts stay together after the explosion of the mines and one can carry them to the graves."
These children who rolled to their deaths were part of the Basiji, a mass movement created by Khomeini in 1979 and militarized after the war started in order to supplement his beleaguered army.The Basij Mostazafan--or "mobilization of the oppressed"--was essentially a volunteer militia, most of whose members were not yet 18. They went enthusiastically, and by the thousands, to their own destruction. "The young men cleared the mines with their own bodies," one veteran of the Iran-Iraq War recalled in 2002 to the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine. "It was sometimes like a race. Even without the commander's orders, everyone wanted to be first."

advertisement

The sacrifice of the Basiji was ghastly. And yet, today, it is a source not of national shame, but of growing pride. Since the end of hostilities against Iraq in 1988, the Basiji have grown both in numbers and influence. They have been deployed, above all, as a vice squad to enforce religious law in Iran, and their elite "special units" have been used as shock troops against anti-government forces. In both 1999 and 2003, for instance, the Basiji were used to suppress student unrest. And, last year, they formed the potent core of the political base that propelled Mahmoud Ahmadinejad--a man who reportedly served as a Basij instructor during the Iran-Iraq War--to the presidency.

Ahmadinejad revels in his alliance with the Basiji.

Full story here

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060424&s=kuntzel042406
 
It's interesting how suicidal some cultures can be, and Islamic societies seem to be on top of the list.

Melon
 
deep said:
Basiji = Delta Force / SEALS / Green Berets


High risk forces??

"These children who rolled to their deaths were part of the Basiji,"


"They have been deployed, above all, as a vice squad to enforce religious law in Iran, and their elite "special units" have been used as shock troops against anti-government forces. In both 1999 and 2003, for instance, the Basiji were used to suppress student unrest."

Green Berets and Delta Force being used to suppress student unrest, bringing in children to detonate lanmines ?

I'd say "apples and oranges", but we're not even in the same produce category here
 
deep said:
Basiji = Delta Force / SEALS / Green Berets


High risk forces??

The Delta Force/SEALS/ Green Berets while conducting dangerous missions accomplish their task by avoiding detection and keeping actual combat to a minimum.

As for the comparison, the Basiji and Delta Force/SEALS/Green Berets are exact opposites in just about every way imaginable.
 
Like I said:

Bush and Ahmadinejad have a similar fanbase. Christofascists...Islamofascists...what's the difference anymore?

Melon
 
melon said:
Like I said:

Bush and Ahmadinejad have a similar fanbase. Christofascists...Islamofascists...what's the difference anymore?

Melon

One wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel, the other wants to stop that from happening.


And I'm no fan of Bush.
 
toscano said:
One wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel, the other wants to stop that from happening.

Take that logic from the Iranian POV and it's exactly the same.

"Bush wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel. Ahmadinejad wants to stop that from happening."

Melon
 
melon said:


Take that logic from the Iranian POV and it's exactly the same.

"Bush wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel. Ahmadinejad wants to stop that from happening."

Melon

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

The US has had nukes for what ? 50 years ?

Bush has been in power for what ? 6 years ?

If we'd wanted to nuke them, it would have happened by now.

Funny post though !

Thanks
 
melon said:


Take that logic from the Iranian POV and it's exactly the same.

"Bush wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel. Ahmadinejad wants to stop that from happening."

Melon

Oh, and when did the idiot Bush, or any evangelical "Christian" ever actually call Iranians "infidels" ? That term is uniquely reserved for non-Muslims by Islam.
 
toscano said:


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

The US has had nukes for what ? 50 years ?

Bush has been in power for what ? 6 years ?

If we'd wanted to nuke them, it would have happened by now.


Surely not during the Iran/ Iraq war when the U.S. made nice business with arms..

Already back in business with Iraq while American soldiers still die there, are we!

Country-Date-Transmission-No.-Description-Transfer-Type-Price

Iraq 8/4/2005 DDTC 035-05 Defense services, technical data and defense articles related to armored security vehicles (ASV APCs) and armored security vehicle command vehicle for end-use by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior/Civil Intervention Force in Support of Operation Iraqi Freedom Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

Iraq 4/25/2005 DDTC 001-05 Military trucks and vehicles Direct Commercial Sales >$100 million

Iraq 3/10/2005 05-17 Six T-56A-7 engines and logistics support for C-130 aircraft to include supply and maintenance support, flares, software upgrades, pyrotechnics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, publications and documentation, personnel training and training equipment, fuel and fueling services, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support Foreign Military Sales $132 million

Iraq 7/14/2003 DTC 01IZ-03 Certain body armor, nuclear, biological and chemical protective equipment, and military equipment (such as small arms and ammunition) for use in reconstituting the Iraqi military or policy forces (or interim forces) Special
 
toscano said:

Oh, and when did the idiot Bush, or any evangelical "Christian" ever actually call Iranians "infidels" ? That term is uniquely reserved for non-Muslims by Islam.

Ha right, they are just on the "axis of evil" and now face a first strike threat potentially using "tactical" nulcear weapons. But surely we shouldn't look past labels and rhetoric to see bullshit and call it out in case empathizing with the enemny looks like sympathy. Nope, can't have that, might actually lead to peace.
 
AliEnvy said:


Ha right, they are just on the "axis of evil" and now face a first strike threat potentially using "tactical" nulcear weapons. But surely we shouldn't look past labels and rhetoric to see bullshit and call it out in case empathizing with the enemny looks like sympathy. Nope, can't have that, might actually lead to peace.

I've never seen anyone quite as gifted at creating labels and catchphases and repeating them ad nauseam until they filter down into the vernacular of the masses, as the Bush administration. :up:
 
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Bush administration admitted to thinking about using "tactical nukes" against Iran? So, from an Iranian POV what should you think, toscano?
Although, maybe the Iranians employ Henry Reid logic. Anything Bush says, believe the opposite.
 
toscano said:
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

The US has had nukes for what ? 50 years ?

Bush has been in power for what ? 6 years ?

If we'd wanted to nuke them, it would have happened by now.

Funny post though !

Thanks

That's because you can't think beyond your narrow American POV. But let me give you a hint: perception is more important than reality.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly said that he only wants nuclear power, not nuclear weapons, and Ayatollah Khameini has also apparently issued a fatwa against developing nuclear weapons. So why don't you trust them at face value?

Now I'm not saying that we should take them at face value, but now I ask why Iranians should take the U.S. at face value. The U.S. has never detonated a nuclear device on Iranian soil, but neither has Iran on U.S. soil. However, we do have a detailed history of interfering in Iranian politics starting from the 1950s, so when Iran is paranoid of Bush's intentions, they have reason. It is also not lost on Iran that we have invaded both their eastern and western neighbors within three years.

Again, perception is more important than reality. It drove the tensions of the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, after all.

Understanding how other people think is a useful tool.

Melon
 
toscano said:
Oh, and when did the idiot Bush, or any evangelical "Christian" ever actually call Iranians "infidels" ? That term is uniquely reserved for non-Muslims by Islam.

It's a metaphor, stupid.

Melon
 
No more personal attacks please.

And the Iran exchanges are taking this thread way off-topic.

ETA: ...so I'm just going to split and merge them with toscano's Iran thread.
 
Last edited:
melon said:


Take that logic from the Iranian POV and it's exactly the same.

"Bush wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel. Ahmadinejad wants to stop that from happening."

Melon
No, he wants to pave the way for his messiah, entirely different than rational self interest.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:


Surely not during the Iran/ Iraq war when the U.S. made nice business with arms..

Already back in business with Iraq while American soldiers still die there, are we!

Country-Date-Transmission-No.-Description-Transfer-Type-Price

Iraq 8/4/2005 DDTC 035-05 Defense services, technical data and defense articles related to armored security vehicles (ASV APCs) and armored security vehicle command vehicle for end-use by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior/Civil Intervention Force in Support of Operation Iraqi Freedom Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

Iraq 4/25/2005 DDTC 001-05 Military trucks and vehicles Direct Commercial Sales >$100 million

Iraq 3/10/2005 05-17 Six T-56A-7 engines and logistics support for C-130 aircraft to include supply and maintenance support, flares, software upgrades, pyrotechnics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, publications and documentation, personnel training and training equipment, fuel and fueling services, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support Foreign Military Sales $132 million

Iraq 7/14/2003 DTC 01IZ-03 Certain body armor, nuclear, biological and chemical protective equipment, and military equipment (such as small arms and ammunition) for use in reconstituting the Iraqi military or policy forces (or interim forces) Special
Yes, selling arms and equipment to an ally ~ the US is not at war with Iraq.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Yes, selling arms and equipment to an ally ~ the US is not at war with Iraq.

Yeah and U.S. arms dealers made a quick $ 282 MILLION with this ALLY while American soldiers are still dying there! I think THATs great, so your positive view of the situation is welcome! Best thing: the U.S. can sell the gear now, instead of providing it for the war they started.

Kudos for keepin Rumsfeld happy :up:
 
So you would rather Iraqi soldiers operate without the equipment in the face of an islamist / fascist insurgency? Likewise with the defence contractors - they make money by supplying what the military needs and it saves lives.
 
A_Wanderer said:
So you would rather Iraqi soldiers operate without the equipment in the face of an islamist / fascist insurgency? Likewise with the defence contractors - they make money by supplying what the military needs and it saves lives.

You´re putting words in my mouth. Nooooooo, I would not rather.

I would not anything. I´m not the U.S. President or the Iraqi president or anyone in THIS kind of business.

I pointed out the cynicism of selling equipment thats worth 300 mil of dollars AND making great profit with the instability of the country - I don´t think the arms dealers are killed in Iraq, it´s the soldiers.

You fail to see the moral issues behind this, your bad. Rich Americans in shallow businesses make millions while average Americans still die on the battlefield - in the same country, in the same conflict.

The defense contractors make money by supplying what the Iraqi military needs - not what the American troops need. The political puppet leader of Iraq, installed by the U.S., happily buys that stuff and gets a kickback, dear. Thats how things run. The arms dealers also were happy to equip Saddam Hussein. They don´t care who it is or where the arms go to in the end. It´s none of their business as long as they make business.

How can a defense contractor guarantee that this equipment will not be used by a future Iraqi dictator? He can´t because there´s no political stability in the region. To hell with that, lets make $$$ and let a few more American soldiers die.
 
:eyebrow:

Firstly you present no evidence for the charge of US puppet regime. On the side of democracy you have multiple independently verified elections, candidates and parties from every ethnic group, high voter turnout with low violence on election days and a consistently high degree of support for deposing Saddam Hussein and for the right to elect leaders (and consistent dissapointment in the security and utilities).

If Ahmad Chalabi was installed as dictator for life then this charge would stand up to scrutiny, but the actions and results of the last 3 years are entirely consistent with fostering an internal democratic process, something that is a good deal harder and more dangerous than just sticking a bastard in there to rule with an Iron fist and keep the oil flowing - the most level headed criticism is based on this and it comes from the "realist" quarters
You fail to see the moral issues behind this, your bad. Rich Americans in shallow businesses make millions while average Americans still die on the battlefield - in the same country, in the same conflict.
Moral issue, these weapons are killing people - namely the people who are killing the "average American" soldier, they are also ensuring that less American support needs to be in the country which means American troops can leave ~ all of which are good outcomes.
How can a defense contractor guarantee that this equipment will not be used by a future Iraqi dictator? He can´t because there´s no political stability in the region. To hell with that, lets make $$$ and let a few more American soldiers die.
American defence contractors selling weapons to Americas allies to fight against a common enemy is not letting a few more American soldiers die, this is the fundamental logical fallacy, an Iraqi army that operates independently means that American troops can get out of the country and less American troops will die.
 
Last edited:
melon said:


That's because you can't think beyond your narrow American POV.


Let me give you a hint. I'm not American. Talk abbout narrow ! LOL!

melon said:


Now I'm not saying that we should take them at face value


First sensible thing you've said on the matter.


melon said:

but now I ask why Iranians should take the U.S. at face value. The U.S. has never detonated a nuclear device on Iranian soil, but neither has Iran on U.S. soil.


tough to do if you haven't got one eh ?

The US has not detonated a nuclear device in armed conflicty on ANYONE's soil in the last 60 years. They have a track record of being trusted with them.

Iran has no track record to speak of, and now they're being run by a voceferous anti-non-Muslim nut, yeah, let's give the scissors to the meanest craziest kid on the block
 
melon said:


It's a metaphor, stupid.


LOL!!!!!!

Really ? No shit !

You're really not very bright are you ?

It's a metaphor, yes. Metaphor for what ?

Oh, yeah, that's right, metaphor for "inferior scumbag we'd like to have wiped off the face off the earth, Allah akbar...."

Are you paying ANY attention to the rantings of the Mullahs and Imams ?
 
OK, hands up everyone for letting this guy have nukes....



'Speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said, "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

In October, Mr. Ahmadinejad said Israel is "a disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."'
 
You know what's funny about arguing with conservatives? Every response just becomes a knee-jerk reaction to certain hot-button words.

You know what the funny thing is? I actually AGREE that Iran is a threat. I have never ever denied that, but in conservativespeak, any words that might dare humanize "the enemy" is perceived as support for it. And, of course, if you "support the enemy," you clearly are against all that is good and pure.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing with someone uninterested in actual discussion. This is nothing but a "goutrage" thread, where everyone is supposed to raise their fists high up in the air and shout.

All my point was that Bush and Ahmadinejad are two peas in a pod, and if people wonder why the hell Iranians ever voted for him, all you have to do is ask why Americans voted for Bush. Both are bombastic, belligerent, appeal to populist goutrage, and don't give a rat's ass what anyone outside their respective countries think. And guess what? Just as everyone hates Ahmadinejad, pretty much everyone outside of America hates Bush too.

yolland said:

One more and this thread is closed.

You'd be doing us a favor by closing it anyway. These kinds of threads are becoming as annoying as chain/game threads in other forums.

Melon
 
Back
Top Bottom