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Old 04-23-2006, 06:17 PM   #16
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Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Bush administration admitted to thinking about using "tactical nukes" against Iran? So, from an Iranian POV what should you think, toscano?
Although, maybe the Iranians employ Henry Reid logic. Anything Bush says, believe the opposite.
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Old 04-23-2006, 08:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

The US has had nukes for what ? 50 years ?

Bush has been in power for what ? 6 years ?

If we'd wanted to nuke them, it would have happened by now.

Funny post though !

Thanks
That's because you can't think beyond your narrow American POV. But let me give you a hint: perception is more important than reality.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly said that he only wants nuclear power, not nuclear weapons, and Ayatollah Khameini has also apparently issued a fatwa against developing nuclear weapons. So why don't you trust them at face value?

Now I'm not saying that we should take them at face value, but now I ask why Iranians should take the U.S. at face value. The U.S. has never detonated a nuclear device on Iranian soil, but neither has Iran on U.S. soil. However, we do have a detailed history of interfering in Iranian politics starting from the 1950s, so when Iran is paranoid of Bush's intentions, they have reason. It is also not lost on Iran that we have invaded both their eastern and western neighbors within three years.

Again, perception is more important than reality. It drove the tensions of the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, after all.

Understanding how other people think is a useful tool.

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Old 04-23-2006, 08:42 PM   #18
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Originally posted by toscano
Oh, and when did the idiot Bush, or any evangelical "Christian" ever actually call Iranians "infidels" ? That term is uniquely reserved for non-Muslims by Islam.
It's a metaphor, stupid.

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Old 04-24-2006, 01:54 AM   #19
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No more personal attacks please.

And the Iran exchanges are taking this thread way off-topic.

ETA: ...so I'm just going to split and merge them with toscano's Iran thread.
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Take that logic from the Iranian POV and it's exactly the same.

"Bush wants to nuke me because I'm an infidel. Ahmadinejad wants to stop that from happening."

Melon
No, he wants to pave the way for his messiah, entirely different than rational self interest.
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:49 AM   #21
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Surely not during the Iran/ Iraq war when the U.S. made nice business with arms..

Already back in business with Iraq while American soldiers still die there, are we!

Country-Date-Transmission-No.-Description-Transfer-Type-Price

Iraq 8/4/2005 DDTC 035-05 Defense services, technical data and defense articles related to armored security vehicles (ASV APCs) and armored security vehicle command vehicle for end-use by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior/Civil Intervention Force in Support of Operation Iraqi Freedom Direct Commercial Sales >$50 million

Iraq 4/25/2005 DDTC 001-05 Military trucks and vehicles Direct Commercial Sales >$100 million

Iraq 3/10/2005 05-17 Six T-56A-7 engines and logistics support for C-130 aircraft to include supply and maintenance support, flares, software upgrades, pyrotechnics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, publications and documentation, personnel training and training equipment, fuel and fueling services, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support Foreign Military Sales $132 million

Iraq 7/14/2003 DTC 01IZ-03 Certain body armor, nuclear, biological and chemical protective equipment, and military equipment (such as small arms and ammunition) for use in reconstituting the Iraqi military or policy forces (or interim forces) Special
Yes, selling arms and equipment to an ally ~ the US is not at war with Iraq.
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:59 AM   #22
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yes, selling arms and equipment to an ally ~ the US is not at war with Iraq.
Yeah and U.S. arms dealers made a quick $ 282 MILLION with this ALLY while American soldiers are still dying there! I think THATs great, so your positive view of the situation is welcome! Best thing: the U.S. can sell the gear now, instead of providing it for the war they started.

Kudos for keepin Rumsfeld happy
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Old 04-24-2006, 06:04 AM   #23
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So you would rather Iraqi soldiers operate without the equipment in the face of an islamist / fascist insurgency? Likewise with the defence contractors - they make money by supplying what the military needs and it saves lives.
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Old 04-24-2006, 08:52 AM   #24
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
So you would rather Iraqi soldiers operate without the equipment in the face of an islamist / fascist insurgency? Likewise with the defence contractors - they make money by supplying what the military needs and it saves lives.
You´re putting words in my mouth. Nooooooo, I would not rather.

I would not anything. I´m not the U.S. President or the Iraqi president or anyone in THIS kind of business.

I pointed out the cynicism of selling equipment thats worth 300 mil of dollars AND making great profit with the instability of the country - I don´t think the arms dealers are killed in Iraq, it´s the soldiers.

You fail to see the moral issues behind this, your bad. Rich Americans in shallow businesses make millions while average Americans still die on the battlefield - in the same country, in the same conflict.

The defense contractors make money by supplying what the Iraqi military needs - not what the American troops need. The political puppet leader of Iraq, installed by the U.S., happily buys that stuff and gets a kickback, dear. Thats how things run. The arms dealers also were happy to equip Saddam Hussein. They don´t care who it is or where the arms go to in the end. It´s none of their business as long as they make business.

How can a defense contractor guarantee that this equipment will not be used by a future Iraqi dictator? He can´t because there´s no political stability in the region. To hell with that, lets make $$$ and let a few more American soldiers die.
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:28 AM   #25
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Firstly you present no evidence for the charge of US puppet regime. On the side of democracy you have multiple independently verified elections, candidates and parties from every ethnic group, high voter turnout with low violence on election days and a consistently high degree of support for deposing Saddam Hussein and for the right to elect leaders (and consistent dissapointment in the security and utilities).

If Ahmad Chalabi was installed as dictator for life then this charge would stand up to scrutiny, but the actions and results of the last 3 years are entirely consistent with fostering an internal democratic process, something that is a good deal harder and more dangerous than just sticking a bastard in there to rule with an Iron fist and keep the oil flowing - the most level headed criticism is based on this and it comes from the "realist" quarters
Quote:
You fail to see the moral issues behind this, your bad. Rich Americans in shallow businesses make millions while average Americans still die on the battlefield - in the same country, in the same conflict.
Moral issue, these weapons are killing people - namely the people who are killing the "average American" soldier, they are also ensuring that less American support needs to be in the country which means American troops can leave ~ all of which are good outcomes.
Quote:
How can a defense contractor guarantee that this equipment will not be used by a future Iraqi dictator? He can´t because there´s no political stability in the region. To hell with that, lets make $$$ and let a few more American soldiers die.
American defence contractors selling weapons to Americas allies to fight against a common enemy is not letting a few more American soldiers die, this is the fundamental logical fallacy, an Iraqi army that operates independently means that American troops can get out of the country and less American troops will die.
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


That's because you can't think beyond your narrow American POV.

Let me give you a hint. I'm not American. Talk abbout narrow ! LOL!

Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Now I'm not saying that we should take them at face value

First sensible thing you've said on the matter.


Quote:
Originally posted by melon

but now I ask why Iranians should take the U.S. at face value. The U.S. has never detonated a nuclear device on Iranian soil, but neither has Iran on U.S. soil.

tough to do if you haven't got one eh ?

The US has not detonated a nuclear device in armed conflicty on ANYONE's soil in the last 60 years. They have a track record of being trusted with them.

Iran has no track record to speak of, and now they're being run by a voceferous anti-non-Muslim nut, yeah, let's give the scissors to the meanest craziest kid on the block
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


It's a metaphor, stupid.

LOL!!!!!!

Really ? No shit !

You're really not very bright are you ?

It's a metaphor, yes. Metaphor for what ?

Oh, yeah, that's right, metaphor for "inferior scumbag we'd like to have wiped off the face off the earth, Allah akbar...."

Are you paying ANY attention to the rantings of the Mullahs and Imams ?
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
No more personal attacks please.
One more and this thread is closed.
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:16 PM   #29
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OK, hands up everyone for letting this guy have nukes....



'Speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said, "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

In October, Mr. Ahmadinejad said Israel is "a disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map."'
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Old 04-24-2006, 08:02 PM   #30
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You know what's funny about arguing with conservatives? Every response just becomes a knee-jerk reaction to certain hot-button words.

You know what the funny thing is? I actually AGREE that Iran is a threat. I have never ever denied that, but in conservativespeak, any words that might dare humanize "the enemy" is perceived as support for it. And, of course, if you "support the enemy," you clearly are against all that is good and pure.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing with someone uninterested in actual discussion. This is nothing but a "goutrage" thread, where everyone is supposed to raise their fists high up in the air and shout.

All my point was that Bush and Ahmadinejad are two peas in a pod, and if people wonder why the hell Iranians ever voted for him, all you have to do is ask why Americans voted for Bush. Both are bombastic, belligerent, appeal to populist goutrage, and don't give a rat's ass what anyone outside their respective countries think. And guess what? Just as everyone hates Ahmadinejad, pretty much everyone outside of America hates Bush too.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

One more and this thread is closed.
You'd be doing us a favor by closing it anyway. These kinds of threads are becoming as annoying as chain/game threads in other forums.

Melon
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