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Old 01-06-2008, 09:13 PM   #151
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Originally posted by namkcuR


Strongbow is Sting? Wow, I had no idea.
Isn't it obvious? His posting style is so distinctive as are his stances (I don't think I've ever met anyone else who will tell you with a straight face that we "actually" won in Vietnam). I'm usually terrible with alters but even I picked that one up pretty quickly.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:31 PM   #152
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Well he admitted it's him, he had an issue signing in as Sting so started a new one, I don't think he as trying to fool anyone with an alter.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:34 PM   #153
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Well he admitted it's him, he had an issue signing in as Sting so started a new one, I don't think he as trying to fool anyone with an alter.
Well, even if he was, he couldn't have fooled me.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:34 PM   #154
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Originally posted by maycocksean
And I'd also add that Obama has done a lot to re-energize the electorate about the possiblities of what this country can do, especially among younger people. That is so important! Because when we become cynical and figure there's nothing we can do any way, then only the fringe types and moneyed lobbyists are active and we give up the reigns of the government that is supposedly ours.

Obama gives people a sense that they can still make a difference, that what they do does actually matter.
That is exactly right. No candidate is going to be exactly the way we want them to be, but he gives us a feeling that it's not about him... it's about US! And he is right!!

As far as joyfulgirl posting that she didn't like the fact that he voted to fund the war at every turn.. well that is NOT true. He spoke out AGAINST it to begin with and....he voted against funding the war and guess who was waiting in the wings to see which way he would vote at the last minute? Hillary. She didn't vote until he did and voted the same way AGAINST the funding so that they couldn't hold that over her head.

Here is the blurb from the Washington Post:

5/24/07 Vote 181: SENATOR OBAMA VOTE: NO

On the Motion: This $120 billion dollar package was passed in the Senate by an 80-14 vote on May 24. The bill primarily focuses on funding for the Iraq war but also addresses other unrelated topics.
A previous war funding bill was vetoed by the president because it included troop withdrawal deadlines, which were largely supported by anti-war Democrats.

Ten Democrats opposed this new bill with no withdrawal deadlines, while 37 supported its passage. Congress had to act to replace war funding that would have ended May 28.

According to the Washington Post, this bill includes 18 “benchmarks that the Iraqi government must meet to continue receiving reconstruction aid.” One hundred billion dollars in funding is slated to support continuing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill says that the President and Congress must not take any action that will endanger the troops and that they provide any funds necessary for training, equipment and other types of support to ensure their safety and the effectiveness of their missions. The president is required to give a first report on the Iraqis' progress in meeting the benchmarks to Congress on July 15.

Seventeen billion dollars in the package is for domestic spending. Out of this funding, $6.4 billion is for Gulf Coast hurricane relief efforts, $3 billion in emergency aid for farmers, $1 billion to upgrade port and mass transit security, $3 billion towards converting closing U.S. military bases to other uses, and $650 million to increase funding for children’s health care. A Congressional Research Service summary states that the “other domestic beneficiaries include state HIV grant programs, mine safety research, youth violence prevention activities, and pandemic flu protection.”

Sens. Barack Obama (Ill.) and Hilary Clinton (N.Y.) were among the 14 who opposed the bill.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:41 PM   #155
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Originally posted by Jeannieco


That is exactly right. No candidate is going to be exactly the way we want them to be, but he gives us a feeling that it's not about him... it's about US! And he is right!!

As far as joyfulgirl posting that she didn't like the fact that he voted to fund the war at every turn.. well that is NOT true. He spoke out AGAINST it to begin with and....he voted against funding the war and guess who was waiting in the wings to see which way he would vote at the last minute? Hillary. She didn't vote until he did and voted the same way AGAINST the funding so that they couldn't hold that over her head.

Here is the blurb from the Washington Post:

5/24/07 Vote 181: SENATOR OBAMA VOTE: NO

On the Motion: This $120 billion dollar package was passed in the Senate by an 80-14 vote on May 24. The bill primarily focuses on funding for the Iraq war but also addresses other unrelated topics.
A previous war funding bill was vetoed by the president because it included troop withdrawal deadlines, which were largely supported by anti-war Democrats.

Ten Democrats opposed this new bill with no withdrawal deadlines, while 37 supported its passage. Congress had to act to replace war funding that would have ended May 28.

According to the Washington Post, this bill includes 18 “benchmarks that the Iraqi government must meet to continue receiving reconstruction aid.” One hundred billion dollars in funding is slated to support continuing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill says that the President and Congress must not take any action that will endanger the troops and that they provide any funds necessary for training, equipment and other types of support to ensure their safety and the effectiveness of their missions. The president is required to give a first report on the Iraqis' progress in meeting the benchmarks to Congress on July 15.

Seventeen billion dollars in the package is for domestic spending. Out of this funding, $6.4 billion is for Gulf Coast hurricane relief efforts, $3 billion in emergency aid for farmers, $1 billion to upgrade port and mass transit security, $3 billion towards converting closing U.S. military bases to other uses, and $650 million to increase funding for children’s health care. A Congressional Research Service summary states that the “other domestic beneficiaries include state HIV grant programs, mine safety research, youth violence prevention activities, and pandemic flu protection.”

Sens. Barack Obama (Ill.) and Hilary Clinton (N.Y.) were among the 14 who opposed the bill.
The irony is that this vote will be used against him in the campaign at some point (probably by the Republicans if it should come to that).

In a way, I think it's to Obama's benefit that he is so inspiring because his actual stances are often very nuanced and nuance doesn't sell well on TV (just ask John Kerry, he who famously--and I think unjustly--was known for voting against the war before he voted for it). If you can't sell overly simplistic ideas and solutions on TV because you recognize the world is too complicated for that, then you better have something else to sell on TV. Fortunately, Obama does.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:18 AM   #156
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


I hope you are simply talking about your military, and the power the threat of it's use wields, because if you are talking socially/politically, I'm sorry to break it to you and don't want to sound rude, but....
Well I hate to break it to you that the United States impact on the rest of the world goes well beyond simply its military power for well over 60 years now.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:21 AM   #157
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You're arguing that the Democrats were 'completely ineffective', but you're digging your own hole. The vast majority of Democrats supported those spending bills just as you say they did, and they wanted the deadline to withdraw the troops, just as they said they did as soon as they were elected, and the reason these bills were 'completely ineffective' was because none of them ever became reality. Bush vetoed all of them and the Democrats never had a big enough majority to to override any of those vetoes. If they did, the deadline would've been set. It is entirely George W. Bush's fault/responsibility/whatever that the Democrats have been 'completely ineffective' in accomplishing what they said they wanted to. You can't get things done in Congress when the President keeps standing in your way.
The Democrats failed to do what they said they would be able to. A presidents veto is not the end of any bill provided you can muster the support to override the veto and the Democrats could not. Say what you will about the Presidents approval rating, the Democratic congress's are even lower.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:21 AM   #158
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“You campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose,” Mrs. Clinton said

But of course it is Obama's poetry that has me switching to him from Kucinich. And as my friends have shown me in the last three days, there are all the things I disagree with Obama on, and even prefer Edwards, Richardson, and Ron Raul on, not to mention my beloved Dennis. On positions, Obama is too centrist for me, but as person, he is too perfect for me, at least too real to be real, if you know what I mean.

And that's okay, because you win my heart in poetry, not in prose. (which is why I am even a regular on a U2 board).

Obama has this 'thing' I cannot shake, and I think he can win, which is scary and beautiful.

NH is huge.

Barack on,
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:25 AM   #159
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“You campaign in poetry, but you govern in prose,” Mrs. Clinton said

Fair point, Senator Clinton. But the message should still be the same whether in poetry or prose.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:27 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


The Democrats failed to do what they said they would be able to. A presidents veto is not the end of any bill provided you can muster the support to override the veto and the Democrats could not. Say what you will about the Presidents approval rating, the Democratic congress's are even lower.
Yes, that's right. Shift the blame onto congress. Nevermind that the majority of American's continue to think the War in Iraq was a bad idea and disapprove of Bush's management of it. Nevermind that the 2006 elections were a clear referendum that the American people were unhappy with the Bush administration. Nope, it's the Democrats fault that they didn't have a large enough majority to override Bush's veto. It's the democratic congress's approval rating that is really the issue here.

Yes. Tell me, do you carry around a 2 liter jug of koolaid or have you moved on to the IV yet?
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:32 AM   #161
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Originally posted by Strongbow

Say what you will about the Presidents approval rating, the Democratic congress's are even lower.
Yeah, but this will always happen when a president isn't willing to work with it's congress.

This divider isn't liked by anyone outside of his base, that's why this next election will be an election of change, no one is looking for status quo on this one, not even most Republicans.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:35 AM   #162
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Originally posted by Strongbow
Well I hate to break it to you that the United States impact on the rest of the world goes well beyond simply its military power for well over 60 years now.
The EU, Australia, New Zealand, et al. socially and politically depend on the US? Get the fuck over yourself. I find your arrogant Americentrism insulting.

Hell, New Zealand doesn't depend on the US for anything. We've been doing just fine after you guys had that little hissy fit in the mid-1980s and suspended the ANZUS treaty because we wouldn't let your government infringe our sovereignty.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:35 AM   #163
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If Paul or Huckabee gets the nom, I could even vote Republican or third party, depending on the Dems. It is very likely that for the first time in my life, I will actually like all the candidates if it is not Hillary vs Romney.

Obama-Edwards still seems likely and most likable.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:38 AM   #164
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Originally posted by Anu
If Paul or Huckabee gets the nom, I could even vote Republican or third party, depending on the Dems. It is very likely that for the first time in my life, I will actually like all the candidates if it is not Hillary vs Romney.

Obama-Edwards still seems likely and most likable.
Huckabilly? Really? He seems like he would be the complete opposite of what you would want...

Care to tell me why?
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:00 AM   #165
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Originally posted by Axver


The EU, Australia, New Zealand, et al. socially and politically depend on the US? Get the fuck over yourself. I find your arrogant Americentrism insulting.

Hell, New Zealand doesn't depend on the US for anything. We've been doing just fine after you guys had that little hissy fit in the mid-1980s and suspended the ANZUS treaty because we wouldn't let your government infringe our sovereignty.
Amen. I wish you can announce this to every single arrogant American (and believe me there are plenty of us) who thinks that America takes care of the world and that we are somehow the "greatest nation in the world." We are definitely NOT the greatest nation, the world doesn't need America's bullshit, the world hates America. I can honestly say that after 9/11 I was very proud to be American, but for some reason, over the last 7 years that pride went to zero.

I don't know why that happened.
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