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Old 03-22-2004, 05:00 PM   #121
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Zapatero hasn't even been sworn in yet and he won a week ago, what else can the man do but SAY he is committed. Maybe you don't understand that it is taken for granted that every Spanish government must and will fight terrorism.

If people didn't want the troops there in the first place, it's not appeasement.

The PP weren't going to win because of their policy on Iraq, in fact they were going to lose their majority because of it and other mistakes.

It's not that clear cut. But we must agree to disagree.

The Spanish government immediately said it was ETA with no evidence! The evidence mounted over three days that it was, while the government still pushed for the ETA explanation because it suited them. I saw it with my own eyes. Other conservative media outlets were reporting the links to al-Qaeda while the state sponsored TV blathered on about ETA.

A UN resolution passed just hours after denouncing ETA as the perpatrators? The PP acted quickly to get things swinging in their favour.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...Cr=terror&Cr1=
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Old 03-22-2004, 08:41 PM   #122
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When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.

Appeasement is what Al Quada was looking for with this bombing and they got it.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:08 AM   #123
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Like I said, agree to disagree.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:33 AM   #124
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Originally posted by STING2
When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.
What you ignore, Sting, is that 90% of the Spanish people did not agree with the Iraq war. The Popular Party were expected to win with the election but with a significantly reduced majority, due in large part to people's opposition to their support for the US/UK war.

You're also ignoring the level of disinformation Aznar and others in his government were putting out about the bombings. I remember watching the news on the day of the bombings and hearing numerous people stating that they thought it was extremely unlikely to be ETA (You know, every time I type ETA, I start laughing at George Bush's inability to correctly pronounce it. ) and yet all along Popular Party officials were refusing to even acknowledge the possibility that it could have been someone other than ETA. That also convinced many people who would otherwise have voted for the Popular Party that the government was untrustworthy and shouldn't be returned to office.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:36 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.

Appeasement is what Al Quada was looking for with this bombing and they got it.
i disagree with the word "appeasement"
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:15 PM   #126
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What you ignore, Sting, is that 90% of the Spanish people did not agree with the Iraq war. The Popular Party were expected to win with the election but with a significantly reduced majority, due in large part to people's opposition to their support for the US/UK war.

You're also ignoring the level of disinformation Aznar and others in his government were putting out about the bombings. I remember watching the news on the day of the bombings and hearing numerous people stating that they thought it was extremely unlikely to be ETA (You know, every time I type ETA, I start laughing at George Bush's inability to correctly pronounce it. ) and yet all along Popular Party officials were refusing to even acknowledge the possibility that it could have been someone other than ETA. That also convinced many people who would otherwise have voted for the Popular Party that the government was untrustworthy and shouldn't be returned to office.
The PP was going to win. Why do you think Al Quada planned the bombing 3 days before the election? Its obvious they thought they had a shot of scaring enough people to vote out the PP. They succeeded.

There were experts all around the world who thought initially it could be ETA. Fact is, in the first 72 hours no one knew 100% for sure who it was. So in my opinion the "cover up" idea is rubbish.

As the economist said:

"This is no time for weakness or appeasement. That is the ultimate lesson from Madrid."
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:33 PM   #127
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Sting, the PP were going to win if those polls held up. In every election there are people who aren't 100% sure of how they are going to vote a week before the election. A good poll would have taken several days to do, so we're talking a solid week before the election. Maybe some voters were lukewarm supporters of the PP during the polls and then changed their votes for whatever reason. You can't have a terrorist attack like that and not expect it to change the political landscape. The PP government wasn't straight about the Al Qaeda connection with the attack, insisting it was ETA. This had to be an irritant with some of the voters. It's not just Iraq, although no one would exactly say that Iraq wasn't an issue. In Spain, maybe it was not an issue that helped the incumbent government. The record turnout was Spain's way of telling the terrorists to "fk off, it's our election".
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:50 PM   #128
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Sting, the PP were going to win if those polls held up. In every election there are people who aren't 100% sure of how they are going to vote a week before the election. A good poll would have taken several days to do, so we're talking a solid week before the election. Maybe some voters were lukewarm supporters of the PP during the polls and then changed their votes for whatever reason. You can't have a terrorist attack like that and not expect it to change the political landscape. The PP government wasn't straight about the Al Qaeda connection with the attack, insisting it was ETA. This had to be an irritant with some of the voters. It's not just Iraq, although no one would exactly say that Iraq wasn't an issue. In Spain, maybe it was not an issue that helped the incumbent government. The record turnout was Spain's way of telling the terrorists to "fk off, it's our election".
It certainly was not a vote of off to the terrorist at all. It was a vote that said "please don't kill us" were sorry we supported Operation Iraqi Freedom and sent troops. It was appeasement in true form.

Al Quada knew they had an opportunity to get this response and they got it. Al Quada achieved all their goals with this bombing! This indeed was appeasement.

If Spain is serious about hunting down terrorist worldwide, withdrawing 1,300 troops engaged against terrorist there is not going to accomplish that.

Spain should not be withdrawing troops from Iraq, they should be sending more. That would have sent a message to the terrorist that they had failed.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:33 PM   #129
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Originally posted by STING2


There were experts all around the world who thought initially it could be ETA. Fact is, in the first 72 hours no one knew 100% for sure who it was. So in my opinion the "cover up" idea is rubbish.

In the first 72 hours no one knew it wasn't my dog.

Therefore it was okay for the government to finger ETA.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:40 PM   #130
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Originally posted by STING2


It certainly was not a vote of off to the terrorist at all. It was a vote that said "please don't kill us" were sorry we supported Operation Iraqi Freedom and sent troops. It was appeasement in true form.

I love how you can incredibly oversimplify this. Your with with us or against us, right? It's mind blowing.

Spain didn't want to go to Iraq in the first place.

What don't you understand?
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:58 PM   #131
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What don't you understand?
The pre-election polls say something completely different.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:25 PM   #132
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Originally posted by iacrobat


I love how you can incredibly oversimplify this. Your with with us or against us, right? It's mind blowing.

Spain didn't want to go to Iraq in the first place.

What don't you understand?
Thats not the point!

PP was set to win re-election. 3 days before election Al Quada bomb the trains in order to scare enough people into voting for the opposition government. Al Quada succeeds in its goal as the opposition government is elected that will withdraw their troops from Iraq. Al Quada succeeded in scaring enough Spannish people into voting for a government that will withdraw troops from Iraq in the hope this would shield the country from further terrorism from Al Quada. The PP which was about to win and would have kept troops in Iraq was removed because of the bombing. Thats appeasement. Thats what Al Quada WANTED! That is what they got! Without the bombing, the PP wins and Spanish troops stay in Iraq.

What don't you understand?
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:29 PM   #133
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What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:44 PM   #134
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What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?
I do respect the right of Spaniards to vote any way they want. But I reserve my right to be critical of it and to call it what it honestly is which is "Appeasement". It may not be my country or my vote, but I have every right to call it right, wrong, Appeasement etc.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:51 PM   #135
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Originally posted by anitram
What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?
Come on. There is plenty of commentary on US policy by non-US citizens. I'm sure you've made a comment or two as well. The courtesy should be extended to US citizens commenting on other countries as well.
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