MERGED: Madrid Bombing

[iacrobat]

Zapatero hasn't even been sworn in yet and he won a week ago, what else can the man do but SAY he is committed. Maybe you don't understand that it is taken for granted that every Spanish government must and will fight terrorism.

If people didn't want the troops there in the first place, it's not appeasement.

The PP weren't going to win because of their policy on Iraq, in fact they were going to lose their majority because of it and other mistakes.

It's not that clear cut. But we must agree to disagree.

The Spanish government immediately said it was ETA with no evidence! The evidence mounted over three days that it was, while the government still pushed for the ETA explanation because it suited them. I saw it with my own eyes. Other conservative media outlets were reporting the links to al-Qaeda while the state sponsored TV blathered on about ETA.

A UN resolution passed just hours after denouncing ETA as the perpatrators? The PP acted quickly to get things swinging in their favour.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=10088&Cr=terror&Cr1=

 

[STING2]

When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.

Appeasement is what Al Quada was looking for with this bombing and they got it.

 

[iacrobat]

Like I said, agree to disagree.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.

What you ignore, Sting, is that 90% of the Spanish people did not agree with the Iraq war. The Popular Party were expected to win with the election but with a significantly reduced majority, due in large part to people's opposition to their support for the US/UK war.

You're also ignoring the level of disinformation Aznar and others in his government were putting out about the bombings. I remember watching the news on the day of the bombings and hearing numerous people stating that they thought it was extremely unlikely to be ETA (You know, every time I type ETA, I start laughing at George Bush's inability to correctly pronounce it. ) and yet all along Popular Party officials were refusing to even acknowledge the possibility that it could have been someone other than ETA. That also convinced many people who would otherwise have voted for the Popular Party that the government was untrustworthy and shouldn't be returned to office.

 

[AcrobatMan]

When voters decide to change their vote to a government that will pull troops out of Iraq because they feel that action will make them safer from terrorism, that is appeasement.

Appeasement is what Al Quada was looking for with this bombing and they got it.

i disagree with the word "appeasement"

 

[STING2]

What you ignore, Sting, is that 90% of the Spanish people did not agree with the Iraq war. The Popular Party were expected to win with the election but with a significantly reduced majority, due in large part to people's opposition to their support for the US/UK war.

You're also ignoring the level of disinformation Aznar and others in his government were putting out about the bombings. I remember watching the news on the day of the bombings and hearing numerous people stating that they thought it was extremely unlikely to be ETA (You know, every time I type ETA, I start laughing at George Bush's inability to correctly pronounce it. ) and yet all along Popular Party officials were refusing to even acknowledge the possibility that it could have been someone other than ETA. That also convinced many people who would otherwise have voted for the Popular Party that the government was untrustworthy and shouldn't be returned to office.

The PP was going to win. Why do you think Al Quada planned the bombing 3 days before the election? Its obvious they thought they had a shot of scaring enough people to vote out the PP. They succeeded.

There were experts all around the world who thought initially it could be ETA. Fact is, in the first 72 hours no one knew 100% for sure who it was. So in my opinion the "cover up" idea is rubbish.

As the economist said:

"This is no time for weakness or appeasement. That is the ultimate lesson from Madrid."

 

[verte76]

Sting, the PP were going to win if those polls held up. In every election there are people who aren't 100% sure of how they are going to vote a week before the election. A good poll would have taken several days to do, so we're talking a solid week before the election. Maybe some voters were lukewarm supporters of the PP during the polls and then changed their votes for whatever reason. You can't have a terrorist attack like that and not expect it to change the political landscape. The PP government wasn't straight about the Al Qaeda connection with the attack, insisting it was ETA. This had to be an irritant with some of the voters. It's not just Iraq, although no one would exactly say that Iraq wasn't an issue. In Spain, maybe it was not an issue that helped the incumbent government. The record turnout was Spain's way of telling the terrorists to "fk off, it's our election".

 

[STING2]

Sting, the PP were going to win if those polls held up. In every election there are people who aren't 100% sure of how they are going to vote a week before the election. A good poll would have taken several days to do, so we're talking a solid week before the election. Maybe some voters were lukewarm supporters of the PP during the polls and then changed their votes for whatever reason. You can't have a terrorist attack like that and not expect it to change the political landscape. The PP government wasn't straight about the Al Qaeda connection with the attack, insisting it was ETA. This had to be an irritant with some of the voters. It's not just Iraq, although no one would exactly say that Iraq wasn't an issue. In Spain, maybe it was not an issue that helped the incumbent government. The record turnout was Spain's way of telling the terrorists to "fk off, it's our election".

It certainly was not a vote of off to the terrorist at all. It was a vote that said "please don't kill us" were sorry we supported Operation Iraqi Freedom and sent troops. It was appeasement in true form.

Al Quada knew they had an opportunity to get this response and they got it. Al Quada achieved all their goals with this bombing! This indeed was appeasement.

If Spain is serious about hunting down terrorist worldwide, withdrawing 1,300 troops engaged against terrorist there is not going to accomplish that.

Spain should not be withdrawing troops from Iraq, they should be sending more. That would have sent a message to the terrorist that they had failed.

 

[iacrobat]

There were experts all around the world who thought initially it could be ETA. Fact is, in the first 72 hours no one knew 100% for sure who it was. So in my opinion the "cover up" idea is rubbish.

In the first 72 hours no one knew it wasn't my dog.

Therefore it was okay for the government to finger ETA.

 

[iacrobat]

It certainly was not a vote of off to the terrorist at all. It was a vote that said "please don't kill us" were sorry we supported Operation Iraqi Freedom and sent troops. It was appeasement in true form.

I love how you can incredibly oversimplify this. Your with with us or against us, right? It's mind blowing.

Spain didn't want to go to Iraq in the first place.

What don't you understand?

 

[nbcrusader]

What don't you understand?

The pre-election polls say something completely different.

 

[STING2]

I love how you can incredibly oversimplify this. Your with with us or against us, right? It's mind blowing.

Spain didn't want to go to Iraq in the first place.

What don't you understand?

Thats not the point!

PP was set to win re-election. 3 days before election Al Quada bomb the trains in order to scare enough people into voting for the opposition government. Al Quada succeeds in its goal as the opposition government is elected that will withdraw their troops from Iraq. Al Quada succeeded in scaring enough Spannish people into voting for a government that will withdraw troops from Iraq in the hope this would shield the country from further terrorism from Al Quada. The PP which was about to win and would have kept troops in Iraq was removed because of the bombing. Thats appeasement. Thats what Al Quada WANTED! That is what they got! Without the bombing, the PP wins and Spanish troops stay in Iraq.

What don't you understand?

 

[anitram]

What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?

 

[STING2]

What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?

I do respect the right of Spaniards to vote any way they want. But I reserve my right to be critical of it and to call it what it honestly is which is "Appeasement". It may not be my country or my vote, but I have every right to call it right, wrong, Appeasement etc.

 

[nbcrusader]

What I'm wondering, STING, is that you feel that even if we disagree with the Iraqi opinion polls, we have to respect the way the Iraqis feel. So why aren't you respecting the way the Spaniards voted? You can feel they appeased al Qaeda, but it's not your country, not your vote and not your business to decide if it's right or wrong. Let's extend them the same respect, can't we?

Come on. There is plenty of commentary on US policy by non-US citizens. I'm sure you've made a comment or two as well. The courtesy should be extended to US citizens commenting on other countries as well.

 

[Dreadsox]

Come on. There is plenty of commentary on US policy by non-US citizens. I'm sure you've made a comment or two as well. The courtesy should be extended to US citizens commenting on other countries as well.

Yes but we are the Great Satan.

 

[Dreadsox]

I no longer believe it is appeasement.....

I believe it may be POLITICS

[Q]Spain's New Leader May Send More Troops to Afghanistan
By KATRIN BENNHOLD,
International Herald Tribune

Published: March 23, 2004


ADRID, March 23 ? In a move that might help muffle criticism of a Socialist pledge to pull troops out of Iraq, Spain's incoming prime minister is considering increasing the number of Spanish soldiers guarding the fragile peace in Afghanistan, sources in his party said today.[/Q]
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/i...00&en=7681c9a2618ad6ad&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

 

[verte76]

Maybe it's politics, but I'm not opposed to troops in Afghanistan, so some good is happening.

 

[STING2]

I no longer believe it is appeasement.....

I believe it may be POLITICS

[Q]Spain's New Leader May Send More Troops to Afghanistan
By KATRIN BENNHOLD,
International Herald Tribune

Published: March 23, 2004


ADRID, March 23 ? In a move that might help muffle criticism of a Socialist pledge to pull troops out of Iraq, Spain's incoming prime minister is considering increasing the number of Spanish soldiers guarding the fragile peace in Afghanistan, sources in his party said today.[/Q]
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/23/i...00&en=7681c9a2618ad6ad&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Spains new government has always been for withdrawing troops from Iraq. What was appeasement was the voters choosing this new government after the bombing as way of stopping further Al Quada attacks on the country.

Al Quada clearly planned to knock out the PP government and they succeeded. The new government is probably trying to find away to respond to the criticism, with the considered increase of Spanish troops in Afghanistan.

 

[iacrobat]

Spains new government has always been for withdrawing troops from Iraq. What was appeasement was the voters choosing this new government after the bombing as way of stopping further Al Quada attacks on the country.

Al Quada clearly planned to knock out the PP government and they succeeded. The new government is probably trying to find away to respond to the criticism, with the considered increase of Spanish troops in Afghanistan.

Nobody here is criticising Zapatero's position, people are happy with what he is doing and there is an air of optimism.

Unless of course he is browsing FYM and now feels really bad about what he's done.

 

[STING2]

Nobody here is criticising Zapatero's position, people are happy with what he is doing and there is an air of optimism.

Unless of course he is browsing FYM and now feels really bad about what he's done.

I was talking about criticism from abroad not in Spain. There was a demonstration by 5,000 people in Madrid against the new government though, so it is incorrect to say that Zapatero is free of any criticism in Spain itself.

 

[iacrobat]

Why on earth would Zapatero bow to pressure from the US? Spain had a government that did so and they were punished for it.

Yes Sting, there was a protest by 5000 people outside the PP office. Between Madrid and Barcelona alone, 3 million people marched against the war in Iraq.

I could easily find you 5000 thousand people that wish Franco were still in power.

 

[iacrobat]

The pre-election polls say something completely different.

1. Those polls were carried out 1 week before the election

2. The exit polls on every major network on March 14 gave the PP a minority government.

3. The PSOE won.

Tells you something about polls, doesn't it?

 

[nbcrusader]

Tells you something about polls, doesn't it?

Yea, the power of a terrorist attack....

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Yea, the power of a terrorist attack....

And this would affect the accuracy of exit polls how exactly?

 

[STING2]

Why on earth would Zapatero bow to pressure from the US? Spain had a government that did so and they were punished for it.

Yes Sting, there was a protest by 5000 people outside the PP office. Between Madrid and Barcelona alone, 3 million people marched against the war in Iraq.

I could easily find you 5000 thousand people that wish Franco were still in power.

It should also be noted that 37.6% of voters still voted for the PP which did not want to withdraw troops from Iraq.

 

[iacrobat]

The problem with the appeasment argument is that you could very well argue the same thing about Canada, for example. Canada didn't send troops, therefore are they appeasing terrorists too?

It all comes back to the same thing, to the same idiotic rhetoric, the same simplified, 2-dimensional world of George Bush, "you're with us or against us." It's that simple, it's black and white. It's my way or nothing.

How nice to live in such a simple world.

 

[iacrobat]

And this would affect the accuracy of exit polls how exactly?

Hmmm, one wonders doesn't one?

 

[STING2]

The problem with the appeasment argument is that you could very well argue the same thing about Canada, for example. Canada didn't send troops, therefore are they appeasing terrorists too?

It all comes back to the same thing, to the same idiotic rhetoric, the same simplified, 2-dimensional world of George Bush, "you're with us or against us." It's that simple, it's black and white. It's my way or nothing.

How nice to live in such a simple world.

Canada was not bombed, Spain was. Many spanish voters in reaction to the bombing voted for the opposition in government that would pull troops out of Iraq in the hopes that that would appease Al Quada and prevent any more bombings from them.

Canada did not send troops to Iraq because of its differences over policy with the coaltion in regards to Iraq, not because they feared they would get bombed if they did.

 

[iacrobat]

What exactly were the Spanish peoples' motives for marching against the war in Iraq then?

The Canadian government listened to what it's people wanted. Canada wanted consensus at the UN. They didn't want to be a part of unilateral action against Iraq.

If the PP had listened to the people of Spain and not supported Bush, what would you say?

Your still talking in the same line. With Bush or with the terrorists.