MERGED-->Jesus, this is Judas + until zee and auf ze veehrld

[Zoomerang96]

until ze and auf ze veehrld

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4882420.stm

really neat read... this old stuff is always interesting especially regarding the gospels.

thoughts?


'Gospel of Judas' to be revealed

Should Christians be respecting Judas?
Judas Iscariot's reputation as one of the most notorious villains in history could be thrown into doubt with the release of an ancient text on Thursday.

The Gospel of Judas, a papyrus document from the 3rd or 4th Century AD, tells the story of Jesus' death from the fallen disciple's point of view.

Alleged to be a copy of an even older text, it casts Judas as a benevolent figure, helping Jesus to save mankind.

The early Christian Church denounced such teachings as heretical.

The 31-page fragile document, written in the Coptic language, was discovered in Egypt in the 1970s.

The National Geographic Society in the US is to publish the first English translation of the text on Thursday and show some of the papyrus pages for the first time.

Breakaway sect

For 2,000 years Christianity has portrayed Judas as the treacherous apostle who betrayed his divine master with a kiss, leading to his capture and crucifixion.

The Resurrection by Piero della Francesca
Gnostics believe Judas helped Jesus save mankind

According to the Bible, Judas received 30 pieces of silver for the act, but died soon afterwards.

But the Gospel of Judas puts Judas in a positive light, identifying him as Christ's favourite disciple and depicting his betrayal as the fulfilment of a divine mission to enable the crucifixion - and thus the foundation of Christianity - to take place.

This view is similar to that held by the Gnostics - members of a 2nd Century AD breakaway Christian sect, who became rivals to the early Church.

They thought that Judas was in fact the most enlightened of the apostles, acting in order that mankind might be redeemed by the death of Christ.

As such they regarded him as deserving gratitude and reverence.

Gnostic writers are believed to have set down their contrasting account of Judas' role in Greek in about 150AD, and some believe that this manuscript may be a copy of that.

Records show that the leaders of the early Christian Church denounced that version as heretical in about 180AD.

The Gospel of Judas was found near Beni Masar in Egypt.

In 2000, the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Basel Switzerland took possession of the document and translation began soon afterwards.

National Geographic struck a publication deal with the foundation last year, thought to have cost $1m (£570,000).

Along with a magazine article, the society will be publishing two books on the Gospel of Judas, and the National Geographic TV channel will be running a special two-hour documentary on the manuscript on Sunday 9 April.

 

[melon]

Neither story should be upheld as the epitome of accuracy, because both the conventional depiction of Judas and this one are likely equally legendary.

The traditional depiction of Judas is meant to be a representation of Judaism, and it reflects the highly anti-Semitic climate in which the New Testament was written.

However, I like having Gnosticism around, mainly because it shows that early Christianity was hardly uniform and in agreement like we romanticize it to be.

Melon

 

[Zoomerang96]

oddly, i didn't put that larry mullen smilie up there. not sure how it ended up in here...

 

[foray]

Saw this on the news today. Loved the texture on those scrolls . Interesting stuff. I wonder if he killed himself, though. Whichever the version, it's still a sad story to me.

foray

 

[AliEnvy]

Facsinating stuff. Also interesting that it was dormant for 30 years after discovery before an organization decided to translate and publish it.

When taught that the Bible was written by the hand of God it makes you wonder how it was coinsidered "complete" at some point in time and where pieces like this fit...or don't fit.

 

[BonosSaint]

Anyone read the Gospel of Judas yet? I checked it out at Barnes and Noble, but didn't really want to shell out close to $20 for a brief text. Guess I'll watch the special tomorrow night. Don't think it reveals the mysteries Jesus supposedly gave to Jesus. Bummer. But from what I've heard it's an interesting take on the story.

 

[blueyedpoet]

Jesus, this is Judas

I was suprised to as-of-yet see a Gospel of Judas discussion considering last sunday's National Geographic channel (in the States) on said gospel.
Here's a bit from wikipedia.com...you can also read the text, in english, from a link at the online encyclopedia.


The Gospel of Judas is a gnostic gospel, the text of which was partially reconstructed in 2006. It has a strong positive focus on the person of Judas Iscariot, who according to orthodox Gospels betrayed Jesus Christ to the Roman authorities who crucified Jesus. The Gospel of Judas frames this act as obedience to the instructions of Jesus, rather than a betrayal.

The true significance of the Gospel of Judas is still unknown, since it has only recently been translated and even the original is highly fragmented. The recent public revelation of this ancient text provides new insight into the diversity of early Christian beliefs.

 

[blueyedpoet]

Here's what I'd like to discuss:
1) Does anyone think this gospel challenges our notion of the historical Jesus? 2) What do you guys think about the philosophical issues present in the gospel? 3) Does this mean Until the End of the World can no longer be performed? ....not really serious about 3

 

[BonosSaint]

Thank you for the link. I had been looking forward to reading the Gospel. It moves confusingly into the esoteric and appears to challenge even the basic theological concepts. If I am reading it correctly--and it's 5:30 in the morning, so I may not be, lol--all of these generations, including ours, come to naught. It appears to challenge the general Christian belief that all are capable of seeing the Kingdom of Heaven--that in fact, it is the privilege of a generation yet to come. It may even challenge the notion of one God, from some of what I've read. I have to admit I was spacing out on the luminaries and self-generated--same way I do when I've read Revelations (I was always bored silly by that kind of stuff.)

I don't think it does much to challenge historical Jesus since that information is sparse anyway. But I think it turns traditional Christianity inside out.

I have to admit that the notion of Jesus and Judas collaberating in the betrayel interests me. Since it appears to me that everything Jesus did in that last week was done to generate that arrest and generate that crucifixion and that what he did was planned out very carefully, I can conceive of that collaberation.

 

[blueyedpoet]

geez, I'm even more unoriginal then I thought.........It's a difficult Gospel to read because there are a few (missing next 17 lines). Jesus talks a great deal about souls and to me he sounds really platonic. Anyone else pick up on this?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Re: until ze and auf ze veehrld

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4882420.stm

really neat read... this old stuff is always interesting especially regarding the gospels.

thoughts?


'Gospel of Judas' to be revealed

Should Christians be respecting Judas?
Judas Iscariot's reputation as one of the most notorious villains in history could be thrown into doubt with the release of an ancient text on Thursday.

The Gospel of Judas, a papyrus document from the 3rd or 4th Century AD, tells the story of Jesus' death from the fallen disciple's point of view.

Alleged to be a copy of an even older text, it casts Judas as a benevolent figure, helping Jesus to save mankind.

The early Christian Church denounced such teachings as heretical.

The 31-page fragile document, written in the Coptic language, was discovered in Egypt in the 1970s.

The National Geographic Society in the US is to publish the first English translation of the text on Thursday and show some of the papyrus pages for the first time.

Breakaway sect

For 2,000 years Christianity has portrayed Judas as the treacherous apostle who betrayed his divine master with a kiss, leading to his capture and crucifixion.

The Resurrection by Piero della Francesca
Gnostics believe Judas helped Jesus save mankind

According to the Bible, Judas received 30 pieces of silver for the act, but died soon afterwards.

But the Gospel of Judas puts Judas in a positive light, identifying him as Christ's favourite disciple and depicting his betrayal as the fulfilment of a divine mission to enable the crucifixion - and thus the foundation of Christianity - to take place.

This view is similar to that held by the Gnostics - members of a 2nd Century AD breakaway Christian sect, who became rivals to the early Church.

They thought that Judas was in fact the most enlightened of the apostles, acting in order that mankind might be redeemed by the death of Christ.

As such they regarded him as deserving gratitude and reverence.

Gnostic writers are believed to have set down their contrasting account of Judas' role in Greek in about 150AD, and some believe that this manuscript may be a copy of that.

Records show that the leaders of the early Christian Church denounced that version as heretical in about 180AD.

The Gospel of Judas was found near Beni Masar in Egypt.

In 2000, the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Basel Switzerland took possession of the document and translation began soon afterwards.

National Geographic struck a publication deal with the foundation last year, thought to have cost $1m (£570,000).

Along with a magazine article, the society will be publishing two books on the Gospel of Judas, and the National Geographic TV channel will be running a special two-hour documentary on the manuscript on Sunday 9 April.

huHAA... you used J's!

 

[U2democrat]

Re: Re: until ze and auf ze veehrld

huHAA... you used J's!

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

This isn't really news, its existence has been common knowledge basically since its writing. Iraneus mentioned it in 180 AD in "Against the Heretics".

And anyone who has studied any church knows that the church has constantly been battling these heresies.

I find it mildly ammusing, however, when news sources claim the Gnostics were condemned because they "were outside of mainstream Christianity" which is about like saying that the Flat Earth Society was dismissed for being outside of mainstream cartography.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: until ze and auf ze veehrld

you used J's!

All of you who are slapping yourself silly
(He did not type the letter J once.)

Where it appears,
It was cut and pasted.

 

[LikeNoOneBefore]

Alright so from what I've heard about the Gospel of Judas, it's complete crap.

Mostly because Judas KILLED HIMSELF before Jesus even died. How could he have this conversation with Jesus?

 

[nbcrusader]

The promoting of the "gospel of judas" is not really about authenticating new religious text, its about another attempt to dilute existing religous doctrine.

 

[blueyedpoet]

The promoting of the "gospel of judas" is not really about authenticating new religious text, its about another attempt to dilute existing religous doctrine.

No, Judas is obviously a gnostic gospel. This is about history of Israel, Rome, early Christian church. This is about the theological development of the church. I don't think many people would suggest this gospel has more authority than any of the other gospels. This is just a really interesting take. And, if you read Mark, Judas doesn't come off as the villian as much as in John. What was going on behind the scenes?

 

[yolland]

Gospel Truth

By APRIL D. DECONICK
New York Times, December 1, 2007

Amid much publicity last year, the National Geographic Society announced that a lost 3rd-century religious text had been found, the Gospel of Judas Iscariot. The shocker: Judas didn’t betray Jesus. Instead, Jesus asked Judas, his most trusted and beloved disciple, to hand him over to be killed. Judas’s reward? Ascent to heaven and exaltation above the other disciples.

It was a great story. Unfortunately, after re-translating the society’s transcription of the Coptic text, I have found that the actual meaning is vastly different. While National Geographic’s translation supported the provocative interpretation of Judas as a hero, a more careful reading makes clear that Judas is not only no hero, he is a demon.

Several of the translation choices made by the society’s scholars fall well outside the commonly accepted practices in the field. For example, in one instance the National Geographic transcription refers to Judas as a “daimon,” which the society’s experts have translated as “spirit.” Actually, the universally accepted word for “spirit” is “pneuma ” — in Gnostic literature “daimon” is always taken to mean “demon.” Likewise, Judas is not set apart “for” the holy generation, as the National Geographic translation says, he is separated “from” it. He does not receive the mysteries of the kingdom because “it is possible for him to go there.” He receives them because Jesus tells him that he can’t go there, and Jesus doesn’t want Judas to betray him out of ignorance. Jesus wants him informed, so that the demonic Judas can suffer all that he deserves.

Perhaps the most egregious mistake I found was a single alteration made to the original Coptic. According to the National Geographic translation, Judas’s ascent to the holy generation would be cursed. But it’s clear from the transcription that the scholars altered the Coptic original, which eliminated a negative from the original sentence. In fact, the original states that Judas will “not ascend to the holy generation.” To its credit, National Geographic has acknowledged this mistake, albeit far too late to change the public misconception.

So what does the Gospel of Judas really say? It says that Judas is a specific demon called the “Thirteenth.” In certain Gnostic traditions, this is the given name of the king of demons — an entity known as Ialdabaoth who lives in the 13th realm above the earth. Judas is his human alter ego, his undercover agent in the world. These Gnostics equated Ialdabaoth with the Hebrew Yahweh, whom they saw as a jealous and wrathful deity and an opponent of the supreme God whom Jesus came to earth to reveal. Whoever wrote the Gospel of Judas was a harsh critic of mainstream Christianity and its rituals. Because Judas is a demon working for Ialdabaoth, the author believed, when Judas sacrifices Jesus he does so to the demons, not to the supreme God. This mocks mainstream Christians’ belief in the atoning value of Jesus’ death and in the effectiveness of the Eucharist.

How could these serious mistakes have been made? Were they genuine errors or was something more deliberate going on? This is the question of the hour, and I do not have a satisfactory answer. Admittedly, the society had a tough task: restoring an old gospel that was lying in a box of its own crumbs. It had been looted from an Egyptian tomb in the 1970s and languished on the underground antiquities market for decades, even spending time in someone’s freezer. So it is truly incredible that the society could resurrect any part of it, let alone piece together about 85 percent of it.

That said, I think the big problem is that National Geographic wanted an exclusive. So it required its scholars to sign nondisclosure statements, to not discuss the text with other experts before publication. The best scholarship is done when life-sized photos of each page of a new manuscript are published before a translation, allowing experts worldwide to share information as they independently work through the text.

Another difficulty is that when National Geographic published its transcription, the facsimiles of the original manuscript it made public were reduced by 56%, making them fairly useless for academic work. Without life-size copies, we are the blind leading the blind. The situation reminds me of the deadlock that held scholarship back on the Dead Sea Scrolls decades ago. When manuscripts are hoarded by a few, it results in errors and monopoly interpretations that are very hard to overturn even after they are proved wrong. To avoid this, the Society of Biblical Literature passed a resolution in 1991 holding that, if the condition of the written manuscript requires that access be restricted, a facsimile reproduction should be the first order of business. It’s a shame that National Geographic, and its group of scholars, did not follow this sensible injunction.

I have wondered why so many scholars and writers have been inspired by the National Geographic version of the Gospel of Judas. I think it may stem from an understandable desire to reform the relationship between Jews and Christians. Judas is a frightening character. For Christians, he is the one who had it all and yet betrayed God to his death for a few coins. For Jews, he is the man whose story was used by Christians to persecute them for centuries. Although we should continue to work toward a reconciliation of this ancient schism, manufacturing a hero Judas is not the answer.



April D. DeConick, a professor of Biblical studies at Rice University, is the author of The Thirteenth Apostle: What the Gospel of Judas Really Says.